Mages in PK

[Azmodon]

Hmm...I did a little thinking. I did some math, too.

For the record. I am about level 500 with around 1500 INT. My HP is around 675.

My Apoc, considering 95 total DEF, does about 678 damage, at the cost of 600MP. This is considering I have the max INT for my level. I have about 4200MP, with all mods considered. I can cast Apoc about seven times. That's saying I never get hit, which I will. Meaning I will have to heal. Which then means I can cast Apoc even fewer times. Follow so far?

Ok. Now, a fighter of my level can have 1000-1500HP, depending on their build. If they picked a 5MP/level race, they can have over 2000MP, no mods considered. Mr. Fighter, if he has trained properly, with that much HP, has Godly Force, and can heal 900HP for 125MP. No MP mods considered. He can cast Godly Force 16 times, and does not use his MP otherwise. In PK, casting healing spells is similar to a free action in D&D. You hit the button and it happens. Since he can do this, he will likely always hit for full damage. He can hit for as much as 250 per swing, no MP needed. Follow so far?

Here we go, assuming attack spells have a timer similar to PK attacks.
I cast Apoc(3800MP left), Mr. Fighter is down about halfway. Mr. Fighter casts Godly Force(1875MP left) and attacks. I am down 1/3 of the way.
I cast Apoc again.(3200MP left), Mr. Fighter is down again, he heals again. (1750MP left) and attacks. I am down 2/3 of the way, near death.
I spam Healing Spirit or cast a single Godly Force(3075MP left) and then cast Apoc(2475MP left), Mr. Figher heals(1625MP left) and attacks. I am down 1/3 of the way.
I cast Apoc again.(1875MP left), Mr. Fighter is down again, he heals again. (1500MP left) and attacks. I am down 2/3 of the way, near death.
I spam Healing Spirit or cast a single Godly Force(1700MP left) and then cast Apoc(1100MP left), Mr. Figher heals(1375MP left) and attacks. I am down 1/3 of the way.
I cast Apoc again.(500MP left), Mr. Fighter is down again, he heals again. (1250MP left) and attacks. I am down 2/3 of the way, near death.
I heal. I don't have enough MP to attack again. Mr. Fighter finishes the job and I die.

Ok. So, even with a full damage Apoc, as long as DEF is counted, the mage still loses to an equal level fighter. Using Kydenn's stats, a fighter who is actually 120-150 levels down from me, I still lose. Oh, and he could have just cast Healing Spirit 3/4 times in quick succession, for even less MP.

Spell damage increases about 21-27 per level from a full INT increase. After DEF this is an increase of approximately 1.35 per level. Most fighters increase HP by 2 or even 3 per level.

MP increases at a rate of 5MP per level for the right races. Fighters gain another casting of Godly Force every 25 levels. I gain another casting of Apocolypse every 120 levels.

So. I'm not exactly a math wiz or anything, but just looking at it, can you tell me exactly *how* mages have the advantage again?

Oh, and since casting healing spells is like a free action in D&D, he can just cast two Godly Forces for not even half the MP of the Apoc whenever I start doing more than 900 damage.

In PvP things are a lot different, because unless the figher is DEX heavy, he'll have to take a full turn to cast Godly Force/use a potion, so I'm not saying anything about that, but in PK...It just doesn't seem to me like the mage is overpowered.

I guess what I'm saying is...I don't see why spells aren't implemented into PK...Ku-Toan is the most dangerous spell I see, because it does 8k for 130MP, I think, but it has a slower damage growth (Less than 1 considering DEF). It's really the only spell I see that would give a mage any kind of advantage. If you were to change that one spell, I see a mage never winning PK unless the fighter is a horrible, useless build, or the fighter is 150+ levels lower.

Oh. And don't bother saying anything about mages at MR's level or higher. A fighter at MR's level could have 3000-4000HP easily, and the mages Apoc would still only do around 1400 or so.

[kyoko]

But don't you think 1400 is a little excessive? That's enough to take me out in 2 hits. (The slightest lag, which happens a lot, and I'm already dead.)  And if this does come into play, they'll have to remove the meditate trick, where you can just set a spell or something to M, and use alt+m to meditate on the fly. You only get hit once a second, so it's pretty easy to pull off.

[Hrothgar]

wouldn't this be better in PvP NOT PK

[Aeric]

Huge problem with spells in PvP, Hrothgar: Shield/heal spells. End of story.

[Jon_Deciple]

-edit-

Im an idoit.

Leave it at that.

This is PK not PVP...

what he said makes sense.

[Azmodon]

Jon, the title of the post is "Mages in PK" I know that spells are way too broken to work in PvP. I was just saying that when I ran the numbers it really didn't seem like mages had much of an advantage in PK, where everybody attacks the same speed and can heal for free, and shield spells obviously wouldn't work, or would work only once.

[Shiris]

PK in general is not very balanced and is highly afterthought-ish to begin with.  If you're going to assume the most experienced of PK'ers, then it might be possible assuming no lag to survive.  But I don't like the idea of adding something that's only manageable for people with an Asian ninjutsu-tailored Ancient Spider Fingers Technique keyboard manipulation ability at the cost of threatening everyone else with full domination.  A 2-hit sneak attack when you're not paying full attention, and bam, that's that for all but the 3 HP/level folks.

Assuming full growth, HP >>>>>>>>> STR in every way as far as PK is concerned, too.  It's way too powerful.  As it stands, mages are the only damage level that could keep up...consider that STR's damage contribution is a hearty 0.15 damage per level when hitting with full HP and 3 STR per level compared to ~1.2 damage per level with Apocalypse and 3 INT per level at max prior INT/level ratio.  Assuming that one has their keyboard and hands set up such that they can easily heal, meditate, click, and etc., you can survive indefinitely and will continue to do so even better as levels increase.  When there's that much of a difference between 1 HP per level, 2 HP per level, and 3 HP per level, while all the other stats contribute a much less explosive change, the system needs an overhaul.

As it stands, the main reason for not adding it is indeed because of the potential 2-hit KO for just about everyone in the game.  Healing spells are up on the list for being greatly refined, too (i.e. not nearly so effective for fighters), so this would only worsen things.

[joundill]

hmm i dont like the idea of unbalancing quest but i still think that mages need abilities in pk

i reckon instead of something like beingable to use godly fist or something you get one spell for holy called "holy" or for fire called "fire" so as it doesnt give mages an advantage over fighters... so a fighter with 200 crush and  200 str would do the same amount of damage as a mage with 200fire and 200 INT

LOL good idea??

[Jon_Deciple]

-edit-

Im an idoit.

Leave it at that.

This is PK not PVP...

what he said makes sense.

[Spang]

I have an idea,
what if before you created a character it asked you would you like to be a fighter or mage (dunno about Hybrids here...) and if you chose mage you add to int like normally ect ect.  But when you go to pk someone your mages INT acts like a fighters STR?

[AcesJaes]

Or even better. "An attack with:" option on the F2 settings.

[Acdc]

mages could just meditate hold there heal(with pot) key and you can move while meditating and do anything else

[Lyrael]

I have an idea,
what if before you created a character it asked you would you like to be a fighter or mage (dunno about Hybrids here...) and if you chose mage you add to int like normally ect ect.  But when you go to pk someone your mages INT acts like a fighters STR?

Where's Dlorak at when you need him?

[Acdc]

at the water fountin

[Azmodon]

I have an idea,
what if before you created a character it asked you would you like to be a fighter or mage (dunno about Hybrids here...) and if you chose mage you add to int like normally ect ect.  But when you go to pk someone your mages INT acts like a fighters STR?

Or even better. "An attack with:" option on the F2 settings.

>.< Look at the dates. This was dropped a long time ago because Shiris said there would be a sweeping update to the skill/spell system.

[AcesJaes]

Well, has it happened yet? =P

[JackHammer]

I'm guessing...that the obvious answer here is.....
........
............
................
no.

[AcesJaes]

My post has a good reason then. =)

[Dlorak]

For next version,
if int > str then int will be used in the pk calculation...

Does this mean mages can do equal damage as fighters IF they equip a high # weapon?
I've long forgotten the formula.

[AcesJaes]

Instead of using weapon bonuses for mage damage calculation in PvP, a spell of choice or a elemental skill might be a better idea.