Unjust Bans

[Optimus]

I know that my opinion does not count for much or anything at all around here, especially conerning topics as contraversial as this. I've been reading a few bans (not to mention experiencing the ban process first hand) lately and the common argument submitted by those who have been banned and are appealing that decision is that someone else has also committed the offence, either in the past or at the same time of the offender. Although I in no way want to 'tell' the QO's and QMO's how to run the game I just thought I might voice some opinions I have with regard to the way in which bans are handled and enforced.

1. In order for QO's to avoid trivial appeals, a system of bans should be instituted which aims to decide bans according to past decisions and not on a case by case basis. This allows for consistency of decisions and offenders cannot argue their case based on another individual's past performance unless they have received a truly inccorect decision which is obviously inconsistent with a past decision.

2.  In game warnings need to be made official, e.g. "this is your first official warning" and a system should be set in place by which QO's follow a protocol in order to avoid complaints about unfair treatment. This also allows for consistency of penalties.

3. Two reasons should be allowed for appeal:
a) To appeal a decision because it is horribly inconsistent with given past information concerning a similar ban/ lack of ban.
b) To appeal a section of the constiution and seek and order for constiutional ammendment based on obvious injustices.

4. A request for appeal should be posted before having all of the QO's discuss the ban discussed. The request should include the reason for the appeal and meaning a single QO can reject or accept the request based on the two criteria mentioned above.

5. Once an individual's permanent ban has been finalised and continuation of annoying posts continues after one warning, that individual should be permanently banned from the forums. I think this is the way it works right now sorry to repeat anything.

This is a lot of effort i know, but it would provide for a better system of dealing with bans and surety of the rules. Sorry if i have been too forward in posting my opinion here, delete at will.

[MysticRat]

I moved it here since it sounds like a suggestion

Suggestions won't be deleted, maybe just flamed a bit
Or implemented

[Belmont]

yeah,I also dont see how 2 exact offenses should be treated differently no matter what,no matter what state you are,an old player or new,your punishment should be the same

[kyoko]

Well, look at it this way:

Someone spams every day, and keeps getting by off of normal warns and such. Eventually, he's going to get banned because he does it EVERY DAY. So you mean to tell me someone that did it once should get banned because someone else did it every day? Or that someone who does it all the time gets by with just another warn again because someone did it once?

I think the system being used now is pretty solid.

[Optimus]

I'm saying that from here on in a precedent should be set. E.g. 5 Warnings for certain types of offences (such as spamming) no matter who the person. How strict or leniant that precedent is up to the current QO's or QMO's. You can't say you're not being naive if you think the QO's are completely impartial, it's ridiculous. Everyone, no matter who they are, develops a certain amount of bias that is dependent on a number of factors (such as how long the individual in question has been playing). If a QO has known a player for a very long time they are going to be more leniant, which is understandable. I'm just saying that noobs will continually pester QO's on the appeal board. The system being used right now really isn't that solid. Case by case decisions never allow for certainty and until that system is replaced there will be numerous appeals, wasting QO time and such. But i guess all the bad people do get banned ........

[The_Wanderer]

well I dunno about this cause I notice I get away with just about anything...I mean I must have had hundreds of warnings for swearing, or just generaly insulting people and nothing happened.  people just laugh and think its funny.  so I could easily see how someone who does the same thing as me and gets ban for it would be pissed off.  I'm still not sure I want a fixed rule system though I kinda like it this way

[Prometheus]

I would have to agree with the treating everyone equally in reguards to banning.  If anything I think, honestly, then noobs should get slightly more leaniancy.  They don't always know the rules.  As for the long term players, we do.  I don't agree with banning forever though.  Mistakes are made and can be forgiven in due time.  A suspention system is something I would like to see put into effect.  Don't know really, just as the section name says, it's a suggestion!  And I'm not a vet. nor a noob.  I'm just in the happy medium.   

[kyoko]

Lol, but the cases are treated the same. It's just that before someone gets an actual ban, the heaviness or lightness on the ban will depend on how many times that character has started trouble before. That's the part of it that you people don't see. All you see is the Appeals/Greivance and not how many times we had to mute someone for language/mute evasion.

[Tina]

*reads through this thread and thinks two things*

One - Everyone thinks they know what's going on. Definitely. Whether they do or not.

Two - Someone was just a tad too cocky about thinking he 'gets away with anything' well done.

[Corre]

People, you're forgetting that we handle everyone in the same way: we consider not only the facts regarding to the specific case, but all the background related to it. Protocols for warn / mute / kick / ban would end in everyone having a "free offense"... that's not what we want to encourage. The current system allows each case to be fully evaluated...  for a previous-case system we would just publish all the cases so far and accept only new scenarios... i think that's not what you expect when you file a grievance.

[Belmont]

hmph, when I used to play alot id be there for everything, ive seen ALOT of people banned for different lengths of time for the exact same thing,even perm banned..

[The_Wanderer]

*reads through this thread and thinks two things*

One - Everyone thinks they know what's going on. Definitely. Whether they do or not.

Two - Someone was just a tad too cocky about thinking he 'gets away with anything' well done.

true as that is, it took 5 years.  anyway I would just like to know if I got perm ban, in which case I will bother you know more.  if not would you happen to know how long I am ban for?

[Tina]

I think one thing that everyone needs to remember, when it is said that other people's bans/offenses/disciplines have no bearing on yours...

That does not mean we don't look at them/consider them/handle them the same way.

What it means is, that often the community at large is not aware of all or even most aspects of the situations in question. It is usually largely assumed by everyone that they do. It is generally rumored to have happen one way or another. But the reality is, that only the admin is actually aware of the exact circumstances in any particular situation.

For instance...once upon a time...I was told by several players that someone was banned permanently from this game, and I quote 'just for saying the name of another game in chat'.

I heard this from new players and vets alike. I heard this alot. I still hear this to this day.

It is not now, nor ever was true.

So when other people mention other games, and don't get banned for it...are we handling it differently? Or is it just possible..that there are other circumstances here that are not so widely rumored. That just possibly, that wasn't the case. And if that's true, is it not just possible, that that case as it is rumored to have been handled, would be ridiculous as a precedent for the next?

Seriously, consider that guys. Just because not every player knows the circumstance around every situation, does not mean that we, as QO's don't.

[Prometheus]

I don't really know how things are handled on here with bans and such.  I do my best not to do anything that would jepordize me being in trouble.  I just like to learn about things!  So when I posted it was in no way to critisize the current system.  I just like to learn.  I'm 29 and still like to think I can learn something new every day   Thanks for not bashin me lol

[Tina]

We can all still learn, and there was nothing to bash. Input is a valuable thing. Criticism can be a valuable thing. But downright disagreement with something just because you don't understand...well..that's just a dangerous thing. That's al.

[JackHammer]

What does it matter to you people, the players, what the Quest Council of Operators does? To begin with, this game is made available to you for free, and that shoudl be reason enough not to question our motives. Apparently, it isn't enough for you people. You seem to think that you have the privelege, nay, the right, to say whatever you want to say and question our motives. Why? Because you play the game? No, the reason the Quest Operators exist is to keep the game flowing the way it should flow, not to be your friends and give you a voice in the matter. To this matter, i say this: "Speak only when spoken to." What we do and how we treat cases is our perogative.

[Tina]

Before the onslought that I'm quite sure Jack's post here will bring begins, let me say this.

He's right.

We as admin, have tried to explain to you how we do things. We have tried to let you know that we are seeing the cases, and paying attention. But you don't  believe us. Everyone thinks they have a better idea of what's going on than we do.

We've justified and explained ourselves to the community at large as a courtesy. But he's right. We don't have to. We have a decent sized admin, and we police each other. We don't always agree. In fact far from it...so there are checks and balances in place, already.

There's nothing wrong with suggestions. I'm not saying that.

But truth be told...we don't owe anyone justification for our actions. We answer to who we're supposed to.

[Prometheus]

last I looked, none of us live in a totaltarian dictatorship.  No one is attacking anyone here, just posting suggestions like the post is here for.  Settle down a bit.  Just do remember that your post JackHammer, started out with "you people" inclueded in the first line.  Does that mean we can all say something since you say to only speak when spoken to?  You should maybe think about the entire audience before you start talking to people like they are your children.  I in no way shape or form meant any type of disrespect with any posts on this subject.  And I really don't understand your outburst.  Could have sworn something like "suggestions" would be for the group "you people" to put things into.  Just a suggestion

[JackHammer]

You fail to understand my point.
To state it simply enough - and i truly didn't want it to come down to this - these are my points.
(1) You don't live here. You participate in the game.
(2) It's a game.
(3) The Operators have the final say. The Operators were entrusted with the duty of making the game run smoothly, and the Operators do so to their own disretion.
(4)Justice is a qualifier, because it is based on good and bad, and we all know that good and bad have different meanings to different people. (Stealing: good for thief,  not for lawman).
(5) I said you people to the people who think that they have the right to question the Operators.
(6) I am a tyrant (Just look at my avatar caption).
If you have anymore questions, PM me or catch me ingame.

[Tina]

Okay. I'm gonna go ahead and reply on this thread one more time. It's becoming dangerously close to a battle ground now, and we're about to nix that.

Prom...my post...Jack's post...my post following his..and maybe some others here...Kyo's...Corre's....were written in answer to a few things in a few ways.

First, we tried explaining how we do do things.

Then, we tried explaining that perhaps the community at large basically has a perception different than ours, because we have more information, in several cases.

Then, we basically reminded everyone that this is, in fact, a privately maintained, free online game.

Now, what you probably don't realize, and I don't expect you to...is that from certain areas we get the same critisism as admin..on the same exact ban cases...weekly..monthly...well..I've been listening for almost 2 years now to some 'ban stories' that were never true.

Please, do not assume any of this was directed at you.

Again, I say I encourage suggestions. I encourage input. And I encourage understanding. But there are parts of what we do, that are not necessarily for the understanding and knowledge of the community. Which means, that maybe not everyone will always like what we do. It's the nature of the beast.

Now let's please back down the hostility level of this thread, just a hair...since it's one I genuinely believe was started by a player with the interest of the game in mind...and not creating a war zone.

Thanks, guys.