Fingolfin/MageBill PK System

[Magical Trevor]

Just a conversation Fingolfin and I had in Quest regarding the PK system and ways to improve it to encourage a little more PK action. PKs and Tourneys rarely happen anymore, and it's kind of sad because PKs and Tourneys are a big part of all the good memories I have about Quest.

<MageBill> Not much PKing anymore.
<Fingolfin> nobody ever has decline off/wants to have a tournament
<MageBill> Yeah. I think I've seen one person get PK'd since I came back.
<MageBill> And you asked him to PK you... >_<'
<Fingolfin> yeah, its sad really
<Fingolfin> with autodecline and looting your own corpse with decline on it really takes it out of the game
<MageBill> Kinda. That was a pretty big part of Quest.
<MageBill> You can loot your own corpse with Decline on?
<MageBill> That's just... craptastic.
<Fingolfin> very
<Fingolfin> its a lot of shiris and her hating of pk i think
<MageBill> Heh.
<MageBill> I'm all for PK safe zones.. Like no PKing in Llirrem.
<MageBill> I think the Decline feature should be gone completely.
<Fingolfin> i mean we already have a safe zone around town
<MageBill> And there should just be PK areas and non-PK areas.
<Fingolfin> nobody would ever be in the pk area
<MageBill> Well, that's why you make all the high level maps PK areas.
<MageBill> Kinda like how Bloodscape did it, if you ever played.
<MageBill> Most of the newb areas were no-PK, but the higher-level areas were all PK.
<Fingolfin> i dont know why they put in loot ur own corpse with decline
<Fingolfin> they want to be more friendly for new folk
<MageBill> Yeah. Well, then just make it everything 5k distance and under is safe and Decline works, but everything after that is fair game and decline doesn't work.
<MageBill> Like it turns off automatically when you reach that distance.
<MageBill> so then people who WANT to PK closer can, but those who don't don't have to.
<Fingolfin> well id like someone else to be pushing for more pk, everytime i talk about autodecline i get yelled at
<MageBill> I'll post this convo in the Suggestions, if you wanna come in and comment

So basically, here's my/our idea.

PK is dead. This is fact and is not arguable. Do not try to deny, the current system just doesn't work.

The ideas we had to 'resurrect' PK in Quest are:

*Non-PK areas
     -An area where Decline can be turned on.
     -Decline is NOT ON BY DEFAULT. Instead the feature should be more clearly
      pointed out towards new players, such as a dialogue box that doesn't
      go away until you turn Decline on, so they know the option is there.
*PK areas
     -An area above a certain distance from town OR in areas of certain maps.
      Generally the higher level maps. Late Rothar, Velgrad, Noslin, etc. Decline
      will be DISABLED in these areas. You just have to take the risk.
     -NO INCREASED DROP RATES as have been previously suggested. That way
      people who chose not want to PK are not being punished, as has been
      brought up.
     -A warning when entering these areas, perhaps on the Map Name thing that
      would simply say "Decline is disabled on this map, you may be PK'd".
*Autodecline
     -Remove the 'looting your own corpse with Decline enabled' nonsense. That's
      one of the worst features that have ever been implemented.
     -Point it out to new players more clearly somehow, like the dialogue box. With
      all the restrictions put on PKing, it seems like the players are being punished
      for the Dev's inability to point out PK more clearly to new players, no offense.

[fingolfin]

I have been pushing for more pk for a while now to no avail. I would like to see how other people feel about it. As it is right now there is essentially no pk. I 100% agree on the looting your own corpse with decline on being a terrible idea. With all the other nerfs to PK over the past few years that was probably the last feature that promoted PK.

From my observations it almost seems like an ecosystem. It seemed possible to coddle new players and completely remove PK for them while still allowing higher lvl's to participate. In practice it seems to have killed PK completely for all levels. High level players weren't always hanging out looking to kill brand new players. The brand new players, the plankton of this ecosystem if you will, brought out the little fish to try to get some PK's. This in turn brought out some medium level players to kill those low level PK'ers, which then lured the high level players, the sharks if you will, to dine on anyone they could take. So while it may not seem like killing new folk was important to pk, it actually may have formed the backbone of all PK activity.

(sorry for the random fish references, watching the Discovery channel as i type this, the point remains valid though)

[SamAdams]

I like the the way you analogized it, fing

I agree with both of these fellows. The entire reason I play games like this is to kill people. I'm very competitive in nature, and climbing a list of numbers was never enough to keep me playing. I try to get stronger and stronger perpetually so that the horizon of people whom I can kill is ever expanding.

That is why the only time that I ever reached the #1 spot in Quest (with Minerva) I didn't continue to play for very long. No one could challenge me. #2 was fing and I'd kill him in two hits.

I was also unaware of the recent change in looting/decline and think that it is either time for a major revamping of PK or a major re-evaluation of which direction this game is going in because I would like to know if I should look to satiate my bloodlust elsewhere or continue to mindlessly button mash for hours on end so that SOMEDAY I might have the chance of possibly fighting another player in the game.

[Lyrael]

I would like to point out one major difference between this version and previous ones, where pk was a huge part: Clans. If people are in clans they are most likely going to be wearing a tag and have no decline on. This is fact. People like to show off tags. The problem is, the price of clans relative to the amount of gold available in game has gone up massively in this version and it's gonna be a long while until even the top people have clans, let alone until they're available to all and sundry. I think a huge part of fixing pk would be dropping the clan price (and the clan tax, 500k/week is too high right now).

Basically, I need to be able to afford more than one clan so I can give out NUDE tags to people. Then you can pk to your heart's content

[fingolfin]

Clans being harder to attain and thus affecting PK was an unintended consequence I would say. Auto Decline, Looting your own corpse with decline on, and minimum level 150 to start/participate in a tournament were deliberate attempts to reduce the amount of PK in the game. So that's 3 intended and 1 unintended moves to limit PK, I'd just like to see some attempt made to promote this aspect of the game. Decline free lands, decline disabling after being afk for so long, decline starts off, something that would make people want to PK again.

For right now ill quote the seemingly farsighted MysticBat from a previous discussion on pk-

MysticRat
Re: remove autodecline
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2008, 05:45:30 AM »
   
If decline stays automatic on, then the ability to PK might as well be removed 

[Dlorak]

I think two servers (one PK, one PvE) is the best solution. But obviously our player base cannot support that.
I think the second best solution is to create that situation on the one sever with opt-in rules. We've done that with the decline.. but not very well.

PK is dead. This is fact and is not arguable. Do not try to deny, the current system just doesn't work.

Yup. Lets do it. Lets ressurect it! PKing is better than no PKing as long as the PKing isn't griefing.

*PK areas
     -An area above a certain distance from town OR in areas of certain maps.
      Generally the higher level maps. Late Rothar, Velgrad, Noslin, etc. Decline
      will be DISABLED in these areas. You just have to take the risk.

So griefing high level players sit on the border and PK all who walk there. I want players who don't want to PK to be able to NOT PK. I dont want to be in the situation where Quest is a FORCED PKing game... but I agree with you... its better to have some forced PK than no PK at all...

I think the situation we had before was that the only players who PK'ed were the griefing players who laughed at their vicitims when they forget to click decline after leaving town. Is this fair? (Expecting direct replys to this question, but for now I'll take it as a given).
-The PKing between two ready-and-willing combatants is still 100% available.
-PK "kill" farming in the PK tourneys had to stop, we all agreed it was lame.

Anyway, from what we've got here it looks like it is either (Q) keep the status quo: no PKing or (F) force PKing with some of the solutions you guys mention.

Lets get a (R) in the mix.

*PK areas
     -NO INCREASED DROP RATES as have been previously suggested. That way
      people who chose not want to PK are not being punished, as has been
      brought up.

<Fingolfin> its a lot of shiris and her hating of pk i think

He did hate the idea of rewarding PKing. Specifically anything that would make you stronger in PvE shouldn't be a reward for PK. But to refute that for a second, really, what isn't going to make you stronger? Obviously Equipment, stat boosts, and skill points are out.. but what about EXP? Gold? both indirectly make you stronger, so those wouldn't be acceptable either under Shiris's assumption. So under Shiris's assumption, I think our hands are tied: its either (Q) or (F).

It is a no brainer that if you don't encourage PK, people won't PK. So what if we reward PK with some novel reward mechanisms instead of FORCING ((F)) people to PK, give them a reason to participate. So here we have it... (R) -- reward PK.

What do you think?? How can we do anything but (R)?

Fing, Bill, I am ignoring a lot of ideas mentioned because the core element to them all is to ((F))ORCE pk... and to lay it all out, I am totally guilty of saying "no PK rewards!" in the past. I am flipflopping. Its all you guys that made it happen... I didn't like your ideas, but I couldn't see a reason why you were wrong... we had to shift our thinking to move it forward, agreed?

EDIT C != R. R. R. R.

[Dlorak]

Improving decline:
what do you guys think about making decline more fixed? The reason I propose it is to get it closer to the "2 servers in 1" kind of ideal.
If you opt in, you cannot opt out until 24 hour period has passed. To opt in or out you'd have to go to the clan hall.

About making decline off by default: no! New players quit when they get ganked and lose all their money.
As a compromise, how about we ask players at level 150 ...
"You have proven yourself! Get involved in PvP in Quest for PK tournaments, (REWARDS)!
You never lose anything but the gold on hand from PvPing!
You NEVER drop equipment or backpack items in Quest!
With so little to lose and so much to gain, jump in now!
(This is the only chance to opt in when you are not in town... ACT NOW! 2for1! all your friends are doing it! Your parents will disaprove if you don't! Your family doctor insists on PvP involvement! God won't love you if you don't get in on this PVP action! You are worthy, aren't you??)"

Maybe we'll ease up on the persuasion, but you get the idea.

[Dlorak]

How to implement (R)... Brainstorming here... add, cut, bash, praise, whatever. Dump ideas.

- a PK-scoring system. "KILLS" doesnt sum up whats involved in PK. It allows tons of abuse, it doesnt give extra points for beating someone higher level than you, or less points for preying on the weak.
- perhaps multiple types of score so we reward (A) participation and (B) victory.
- a way to convert score(s) into rewards. A shop that takes rewards as currency...
- involve clans...
- Cool ideas to encourage PK encounters.
- Cool idea to encourage PK encounters #1: a bald spot where simply walking on the center gives your clan bonuses. Holding the point for more than a minute activates the bonus. Say, +5% HP.
- Cool idea to encourage PK encounters #2: PK tourneys!
- Cool idea to encourage PK encounters #3: ...


Oh oh.. just as an aside.. we have to make healing in PK take time. it can't be instant, for.. say.. 3minutes after being hit in PK.

[Pops]

what do you guys think about making decline more fixed? The reason I propose it is to get it closer to the "2 servers in 1" kind of ideal.
If you opt in, you cannot opt out until 24 hour period has passed. To opt in or out you'd have to go to the clan hall.

I like this, but instead of making it for a set 24 hours, we have safe zones in each land where you can turn decline on and off and we remove looting your own corpse with decline on.

[fingolfin]

Well looting with decline on needs to go, but how about this as a way to encourage PK. I know that you guys dont want to reward PK'ers with gold, exp, anything that would give them some tangible bonus. What about something more intangible like sprites or titles? It doesn't hurt anyone who doesnt want to participate and trivial though it may seem it might lure people into pk'ing more if they could attain some title next to their name or series of sprites after reaching pk'ing milestones, off the top of my head a dif sprite for killing one of each rank, neophyte, knight, etc...

[Alexis]

I like this, but instead of making it for a set 24 hours, we have safe zones in each land where you can turn decline on and off and we remove looting your own corpse with decline on.

If we remove looting your own corpse it would only cause what we are trying to avoid

About making decline off by default: no! New players quit when they get ganked and lose all their money.

[fingolfin]

To the people quitting after being pk'ed, honestly anyone who quits over being pk'ed isn't going to stick around anyways.

[Alexis]

I see that differently. Let them see that we have a nice community first. A friendly player base is what also keeps players. New players getting pk'd doesn't promote that friendly player base.

[fingolfin]

Well I was talking to pops about it, if the aim of autodecline was to encourage new players to join, im not sure of its effect. It has been around for a year or 2 now and I havent seen a flood of new players since then. Actually in the last year how many people can you name that were brand new to the game that actually leveled and stuck around? The only people I can think of are friends of Questers. The only people in the last year or so who actually stuck around and leveled that were new that i can think of were Jericho, Arevalo, Weighsone, Ohric, Eragon, that group really, and i know that all of them were for more pk in the game.

[Magical Trevor]

I don't have much to say. I agree with Fingolfin about the possibility of PK being a major selling point of Quest, if we can make it both fun AND friendly to newbies. I generally like the direction we're heading. Anything away from (Q), as Dlor put it, is good.

I do have one point, though.

About making decline off by default: no! New players quit when they get ganked and lose all their money.

I still firmly believe that the only reason the auto-on even exists is that the feature is so poorly pointed out/explained to new players. I still think a short tutorial on your first login in the form of those Blue Dialogue screens that doesn't go away until you've followed the prompts would solve this, as well as point out some other features that aren't easy to understand for new players. Annoying? Yes. Effective? If they're smart, yes, if they're dumb, let them get pissed at being Ganked and go play WoW. Natural selection.

[fingolfin]

Again, if the sole purpose of autodecline was to increase the amount of new players that stick around I don't see how you could argue that it has been anything but a failure.

In response to an earlier statement-

I think the situation we had before was that the only players who PK'ed were the griefing players who laughed at their vicitims when they forget to click decline after leaving town. Is this fair? (Expecting direct replys to this question, but for now I'll take it as a given).

This wasn't really the case. I think most people want to pk in some way, but the lower level players feel there is no reason to take decline off because there is nobody they can kill. The high level players always had decline off because they couldn't be killed. Before autodecline your low level players (1-50ish) would take decline off because they could kill those new folk that stumbled on to quest for the first time. These 1-50 players would then make an appetizing target for your 100-200 level players who would swoop in for hte kill knowing that it was a rare opportunity where a lower level had decline off. Once a few pk's started popping up showing that a wide range of players from 1-200 had decline off eventually a higher level player would move in and chase everybody off. When that high level player successfully killed everyone or had them run away he would go back to leveling and the cycle would repeat itself.

The key to the pk system was getting someone lower then your own level to have decline off. This was accomplished through logging in as undeclined. Now I'm not saying we have to go back to that for pk to work (even though it would be nice), but there has to be some way of making a lower level person want to take decline off.

So as a direct response to your earlier statement, more people PK'ed then just those looking to slaughter anyone who wandered out of town after forgetting decline.

[Magical Trevor]

In addition to Fing's statement, it's not so much that new players hated getting ganked and losing their money. It was more other players' attitudes towards their death. If their corpse gets taken (or if they die multiple times while trying to retrieve their corpse due to strong monsters or other players), they get frustrated. If players were to help them, or perhaps if the BANK feature were pointed out more clearly, this also would not happen.

Gotta remember, not everyone who comes to Quest is a tried-and-true ORPG expert. Point out the simple features more clearly. That's all it really takes.

[Alexis]

The high level players always had decline off because they couldn't be killed.

I keep decline on because I don't want to be bothered when I am leveling and lose gold to "idiots" that get a kick out of killing others. I myself would like to pk on my own time like when I'm bored and don't feel like leveling.

Making low level people/new players more susceptible to pking does nothing but tell me that people want easy targets and as mentioned before discourage new people. There has got to be a way to compromise.

The idea of encouraging players to pk with rewards is a decent one however I don't think they should be rewards that help their characters level better. Fingolfin had the idea of rewarding with sprites and titles which doesn't sound bad at all.

[MysticRat]

Idea:

Give stat rewards for being signed in to a clan (stats raise or increased drop rate or higher gold rewards or a combination of these)
Implement Clan Wars (Clan A can declare on Clan B)
decline has no effect while in war
You don't lose your gold while pk-ed
Do NOT create a pk top list
PK deaths warp you back to town
Clan war wins give a (timed) profit

??

[fingolfin]

I like the stat rewards/other rewards but it seems like those are out of the question. I think clan wars would be a good idea if the prices were lowered, nobody can afford clans now