damage

[fingolfin]

You guys really want to annoy the players dont ya... I was fighting in Nos at lvl 684, now I cant even fight at the beginning of Velgrad without taking a lot of damage, thats a little ridiculous. I dont see the point of having other lands if players will never be able to realistically reach them.

[TenaciousD]

I cringed when I heard they were re-implementing minimum monster damage, it appeared a step backwards to me, back to the 95% max ttl defense days... I haven't able to logon to try it, but it sure doesn't sound very good. :/

[fingolfin]

granted we have more hp, ive got like 17kish, but at the very beginning of Velgrad im getting hit for 600's, i cant even fight at the beginning of velgrad at 684 lol

[Dlorak]

damage minimums suck... they cause things like this. Monsters have damage minimums and it sucks.

so your fighting level 684 mobs, they have 160% weapons, about 3.75*level str... do the math: 4104 damage.

lets say you have have 45% armor, and - 2700 DEF, WITHOUT COUNTING DEFMODS. (your about that DEF, right?)

4104 * .55 =  2257

2257 - 2700 = - 443

so there are 443 points that could be used on: DEX to increase your dodge/hit chance.
or STR: to add more than 450 damage per hit. with new weapon skills prolly closer to a 1000.

Not to mention massive DEFMODs on items I know some people have...

Its not a forgiving change, but with some adjustments (hard-to-do adjustments) you can be fighting tougher mobs.

monster minimum damages (or DEF-character nerf, however you look at it) suck. But this is better than 1-damage mobs all over the place. This isn't the final answer for mobs... we'll have to keep tweaking.

[fingolfin]

I went from fighting in nos to back to the beginning of Vel. I didnt learn the formulas for this version so ill just lay out my stats and tell you where i was and where i am now. I was fighting comfortably at the beginning of Noslin, fighting ( just checked) mobs of lvl 1290-1300, gaining .2 or .3% exp per fight. I could fight here with no fear of dying, mashing the buttons as fast as can be. I would take one damage but to pay for that id have to hit the mob like 30ish times due to my heavy investment in def over other stats.

Now after the changes im at the beginning of velgrad, fighting lvl 600 mobs, getting hit for 600 each time they attack. I get .1% or less per fight here. My stats are- DEF:2748(+1344), DEX:693(+907), INT:674(+0), STR:2055(+741), Total Attack Power:5032, Total Def:45% reduction.  (-4092).

Now you make it seem like i can somehow use the extra points in def and put them somewhere else more useful, but this char is stuck as it is, stat transfer is not an option due to the enormous cost. I think the issue  I have is that Quest has always been a button mashing game. With 95% reduction you trained where you could quickly mash attack without dying. This last version you trained where you got hit for one. Regardless of if i had massive dex id still be getting hit for 400's at the end of rothar, even at this high of a lvl. Getting hit for that much means id have to take time, slow way down and watch every fight. You have taken the already slowest of the lvling versions( last one ) and made it even slower.

[Tosh]

You guys really want to annoy the players dont ya... I was fighting in Nos at lvl 684, now I cant even fight at the beginning of Velgrad without taking a lot of damage, thats a little ridiculous. I dont see the point of having other lands if players will never be able to realistically reach them.

Yeah, I WAS in Mid-Velgrad, now im back in Rothar at lvl 590. Even with 15k Base HP, training at the beginning of Velgrad i can still die with 45.2% reduction (-3322). I went from fighting lvl 1000 mobs to less than 600 at the very end of Rothar. So in order to get to Velgrad we'll have to be lvl 700+? No casual player is ever going to play this game(and enjoy it). I dunno, it just seems to me that instead of a wipe your forcing us to create a new character to be able to work with this new system. SO0o, all in all you shafted just about everyone.

[Rydia]

I think u guys r just complaining because u cant just mash the attack button to lvl anymore. Now that it requires work to lvl, u guys dont like it. You used to be able to lvl to 600+ in just a few days or weeks and i think this change will eliminate that. I am still fighting in the same place i did before the update and it doesnt really bother me other than having to to use a lot of potions, which is just a good gold sink. This update will make it harder for u to lvl, but i think its better than being able to lvl to really high lvls and then getting sick of the game and leaving, like some people already have.


-Cecil

[fingolfin]

Well Cecil i know you have played enough to know this, this was not a fast lvling version. This was actually probably the slowest version to date. The insane def version you could get 1k in a week, this version was nothing like that. Dlorak has admitted that anyone who invested heavily in def is now at a great disadvantage. People are upset that their high lvl chars have been nerfed and would need to start over to have a productive one. Also, on a personal note, ive always lvled very slowly. The first version i 3hp/2str, this version again a slow build, so dont act like im used to flying up in lvls with a fast build, ive always been grinding it out and putting in the work to lvl.

[Tosh]

Well Cecil i know you have played enough to know this, this was not a fast lvling version. This was actually probably the slowest version to date. The insane def version you could get 1k in a week, this version was nothing like that. Dlorak has admitted that anyone who invested heavily in def is now at a great disadvantage. People are upset that their high lvl chars have been nerfed and would need to start over to have a productive one. Also, on a personal note, ive always lvled very slowly. The first version i 3hp/2str, this version again a slow build, so dont act like im used to flying up in lvls with a fast build, ive always been grinding it out and putting in the work to lvl.

At least someone made sense of why we dont like the version. And no im pretty sure its not the fact that it takes work to lvl now. It has more to do with the fact that everytime players reach Velgrad/Noslin they get pushed back out of it. AND why nerf def? That doesnt make sense, DEFENSE is supposed to protect you, not put you at a disadvantage wtf?

[hoya999]

in addition to what fingolfin said im annoyed at the whole concept of impact damage . if monsters are supposed to be like players now, why dont all the weapons have impact damage if every monster in the game has impact damage equal to their lvl? players have to find jewels or weapons that already have the mod on it, but somehow every monster has it automatically? i mean either u make it so all characters also add impact damage to their attacks equal to their lvl, or just get rid of the idea completely. or as a compromise, only have some monsters have it since as is if any player can do impact damage right now its rare, so it should be rare for the monsters to do it too, not have every monster be able to do it while the players cant do it all unless they get lucky and find jewels while mining, which is pretty much the only thing higher lvl players can do now, mine for jewels since lvling takes a lot longer now than it did before, which even then was pretty slow.  in my opinion, the whole impact damage thing is like saying "screw u veteran players, we're changing things and ur high lvl chars are worthless now" .  at the very least u should make it so for one day people can switch around their stats for free to be better suited for the new way things are done instead of having to pay billions to move stats that are worthless now.

and as for rydia's comment at the end, this new system is making people want to do that anyway. the people that are high lvls all sound like they want to quit fighting now until this whole thing is fixed. like even fing said all he'll do now is mine, and i bet the way things are now will make a bunch of other long time players want to stop playing too.

sheesh, every time i try to post this, someone else has posted, its told me 4 times now "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post. "

[Tosh]

in addition to what fingolfin said im annoyed at the whole concept of impact damage . if monsters are supposed to be like players now, why dont all the weapons have impact damage if every monster in the game has impact damage equal to their lvl? players have to find jewels or weapons that already have the mod on it, but somehow every monster has it automatically? i mean either u make it so all characters also add impact damage to their attacks equal to their lvl, or just get rid of the idea completely. or as a compromise, only have some monsters have it since as is if any player can do impact damage right now its rare, so it should be rare for the monsters to do it too, not have every monster be able to do it while the players cant do it all unless they get lucky and find jewels while mining, which is pretty much the only thing higher lvl players can do now, mine for jewels since lvling takes a lot longer now than it did before, which even then was pretty slow.  in my opinion, the whole impact damage thing is like saying "screw u veteran players, we're changing things and ur high lvl chars are worthless now" .  at the very least u should make it so for one day people can switch around their stats for free to be better suited for the new way things are done instead of having to pay billions to move stats that are worthless now.

and as for rydia's comment at the end, this new system is making people want to do that anyway. the people that are high lvls all sound like they want to quit fighting now until this whole thing is fixed. like even fing said all he'll do now is mine, and i bet the way things are now will make a bunch of other long time players want to stop playing too.

sheesh, every time i try to post this, someone else has posted, its told me 4 times now "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post. "

Hoya ftw.

[Dlorak]

AND why nerf def? That doesnt make sense, DEFENSE is supposed to protect you, not put you at a disadvantage wtf?

Completely fair comment. I agree... I don't like min monster damages... I'll come back to reason why monsters need min damage.

in addition to what fingolfin said im annoyed at the whole concept of impact damage . if monsters are supposed to be like players now, why dont all the weapons have impact damage if every monster in the game has impact damage equal to their lvl? players have to find jewels or weapons that already have the mod on it, but somehow every monster has it automatically?

Monsters are big and tough and live in the wild with no potions, can only attack, can't flee, etc... we don't want players=monsters. That said it is unfair that every mob has this awsome (and huge) impact damage that players can't get their hands on easily at all... if its so common mobs have it why not make it common for players? Good point.

 in my opinion, the whole impact damage thing is like saying "screw u veteran players, we're changing things and ur high lvl chars are worthless now" .  at the very least u should make it so for one day people can switch around their stats for free to be better suited for the new way things are done instead of having to pay billions to move stats that are worthless now.

Good point, it was a huge nerf and too big of a slap to DEF-based characters (100% of top-level chars). 1million flat fee to move stats next version. looks like next version is gonna be bug fixes and tweaks and nothing more, should be a quick release.

the people that are high lvls all sound like they want to quit fighting now until this whole thing is fixed. like even fing said all he'll do now is mine, and i bet the way things are now will make a bunch of other long time players want to stop playing too.

As always... things change 'round here.



Minimum monster damages are better than the 1-damage barrier for longer fights. I want to move quest into strategic, more thoughtful fights. Thats the goal. It will happen.
Minimum monster damages also suck. Alot. The cure might be worse than the disease in this case... not 100% sure, mostly because it doesn't matter. It doesnt matter cause we'll find another way to fix this...

AND why nerf def? That doesnt make sense, DEFENSE is supposed to protect you, not put you at a disadvantage wtf?

Yeah, if def can't reduce damage whats the point?
Admitably, it DOES reduce damage, and it could be a formula we use.. but if we keep a absolute damage reduction the 1-damage phenomenon is always lurking...
So we need to
1. block 1-damage mobs out of the exp-equasion... Good idea!
OR
2. ditch absolute damage reduction..


Okay, so thinking about #1, we don't want the 1-damage phenomenon. So, we want to discourage people from taking on the 1-damage mobs. Simple. We'll do the grey (0% exp) blue 50%, green 75%, yellow 100%, orange 125%, red 150%. A monster gets a colour in relation to what level you are. Sounds really good.
BUt when it comes time to put that into the game, it creates one of two situations:
- the yellows are easy to get the 1-dmg phenomenon on, and then the whole thing is useless, it failed.
- OR the yellows are hard to get the 1-dmg phenomenon on (good!), and low-def characters are taking huge amounts of damage... Here the risk is everyone dumps 3pts/level into def and we're a 2-stat points a level game... we can avoid the degregation into a 2-stat game by balancing HP. More HP makes each individual point of damage be a lower percentage of your total health, thus devaluing DEF, allowing it to be less used.
This sounds good on paper but turns out to make either HP or DEF important than the other. The solution to that is to mix up armor piercing and def piercing... can be done. Thats option 1.

Option #2 is to change what stats do, and ditch abs damage... we'll flesh something out with this.

[fingolfin]

This 1 million flat fee to move points, is that one million per point or 1 million to move all the points you want?

[hoya999]

i would like to think it means the second one, but knowing them it might be the first one

[crazywana]

So mages damage is reduced by not having combos in this update and warriors damage is increased by having all skills do extra damage? My lvl 40 warrior is able to do the same amount of damage as my 140 mage since my mage has reached max damage for it's skills. It seems that currently as a mage it is useless to massively increase INT since all the magic skills max out so easily. Why not remove the max damage caps? The lower skills still get less of a % increase in damage so it isn't efficient to use them over higher skills. With warrior and monster damage up why do mage's have so little power? Seems with higher hp and higher monster damage everyone should have higher damage to match.

[Dlorak]

So mages damage is reduced by not having combos in this update and warriors damage is increased by having all skills do extra damage? My lvl 40 warrior is able to do the same amount of damage as my 140 mage since my mage has reached max damage for it's skills. It seems that currently as a mage it is useless to massively increase INT since all the magic skills max out so easily. Why not remove the max damage caps? The lower skills still get less of a % increase in damage so it isn't efficient to use them over higher skills. With warrior and monster damage up why do mage's have so little power? Seems with higher hp and higher monster damage everyone should have higher damage to match.

This is a whole 'nother issue than damage. Has to do with griefing the low-level spells MP/damage ratio... I can explain further if you don't see it.
This certainly slipped my radar of balancing and now that I think about it removing the caps after a certain level should be okay. We'll try level 200+ capless and go from there.

is that one million per point or 1 million to move all the points you want?

100million for 100points...

[fingolfin]

1 mil per point? that doesnt really help anyone... Im the 2nd richest person in the game and the amount of money i have in no way would help me balance my char. Id suggest just not doing stat transfers like that if thats the case, i might be able to use it a little but nobody else could and thats not really fair.

I think hoya meant more of a 1 time only reallocate your stats for free since you nerfed everyones hard work for the last couple months. A way to make it so everyones char has some hope of being useful. I mean for 1 mil a point its not worth it... i could spend 100 mil moving 100 points into dex, or just put 1 dex jewel on one of my items.

[hoya999]

fing is right though, i did mean a one time only free stat moving , cause at 1 mil a point, only the top 5 (not counting jouser) would have enough money to move 100 pts and in most cases they'd probably want to move more than that. i mean even 20th place on the list (10 days old, but still) was for only 16 mil.

im just not sure how u would be able to do it considering normally the points are allocated at lvl up, so it doesnt seem like u can just rest the added points and have them easily distributed back like the skill xp.and it would be hard to get everyone on in the same time frame where the fee was set at zero for a certain time frame to switch stats and then after the time frame is up, the cost goes back in. or u can set it up so it starts at one gold and then adds up like normal for a limited time lol. im not sure how to do it, but the idea was like what fing said.

[chillidog21]

i don't like the fighting this version i put my sp on lighting and it is 490 lighting is really weak but other than that i fight 2 fights heal then 2 fights heal then 2 fights and heal then meditate longer than i fight i was lvl ing every 20-30 min before update now its taking 2-3 hours for one lvl. I went from 2 hitting lvl 800,s to 6-8 hitting 600's all the healing and meditating is making it faster to lvl with map mining with only 200 mining skill.

[Dlorak]

1 mil per point? that doesnt really help anyone... Im the 2nd richest person in the game and the amount of money i have in no way would help me balance my char. Id suggest just not doing stat transfers like that if thats the case, i might be able to use it a little but nobody else could and thats not really fair.

I think hoya meant more of a 1 time only reallocate your stats for free since you nerfed everyones hard work for the last couple months. A way to make it so everyones char has some hope of being useful. I mean for 1 mil a point its not worth it... i could spend 100 mil moving 100 points into dex, or just put 1 dex jewel on one of my items.

oh please, quit being so melodramatic  . If you don't have the cash, your likely low enough level that as you level up you can cease putting points into def for awhile. If your high as fing you might want to use some of that hard earned gold towards reallocating a few hundred points. When it was time to buy the 200million nauseator no one even had a quibble... but cheap re-statting your character is "useless"? nonsense.

Still, the economics are a little steep, lets do 500k.