New Quest v2.0 (item mods, def formula, number crunching)

[Jon_Deciple]

For those of you with open minds its no difficult task to see the current def formula is unbalanced. It is also plain to see that within a few short weeks the quest ecenomy is pretty much back to where it was before april 1. Project the current state ahead say a month or two, and its pretty much exactly the same as before...

Well hopefully this can change that.
Item List
That item list should help in a lot of ways.

Firstly the shop would sell items that are worth using.
The shop could buy nonrares at set prices
 - There would be less excess rares because players would sell unwanted rares to the shop
 - The money introduced this way would be able to be used at the witch transferring stats
 - Players who can not find good rares can buy items from the shop with good stats
Mobs can drop rares up to three lvls lower than the current mob lvl (ex lvl 8's dropping 8, 7, and 6 rares and nonrares)
 - Reduces the number of higher lvl rares on the market
 - makes rares more "rare"
Items are not overpowered between levels, supers are roughly two lvls above the highest rare items, making a nice "power curve"
Items have dex mods, int mods, as well as negitive mods
 - negitive mods will assist in assuring weapons are more effective in skilled players, a lvl 1 with a HoT will lack the sufficent stats to effectively use such a weapon. Note its not impossable to use any weapon at any level, but it may be difficult.
New Def Formula allows for greater variety of def mods and armor powers up to about 100

Speaking of def formulas, the one i came up with earlier needs to be tweaked for use with the new weapons to check that everything is balanced. Im only one person, give me a few days to finish this up.

What can you do to help? items need names and sprites. Feel free to post suggestions. I will add them to the excel spreadsheet and it will make it easier for the Devs to implement this.



new def formula:
damage to player =((base damage * 0.88) - (base damage * (armor number / 200))) - (((((defender defence) + defence mods) +1 ) ^ 0.745)) - 400

base damage = total str for fighters, and close to that for mages

[TenaciousD]

I have to agree the economy is on the fast track to being right back where it was before... something needs to happen. Maybe adding blacksmithing would be a good way to eat all these extra rares up.

[fingolfin]

Other then the negative mods I dont mind the wep's being tweaked. I like the idea of the store buying rares and mobs dropping a rare within a lvl range doesnt bother me.

The negatives presented in the spreadsheet though i have some issues with. You took daggers and gave them - Hp and def, two very important stats. While for wands you gave them - hp and str, and str doesnt matter at all for a mage. With hammers you have -3 def and - 321 dex for a lvl 8 while again daggers seemed comparatively screwed over at - 345 def and -37 hp. Dex is a stat that is currently pretty useless and the negative wouldnt really hurt someone. Maybe its just me but daggers seem to have gotten the shaft in your new formula.

[Jon_Deciple]

Fing thats EXACTLY what im looking for. Everyone has a bias, and i need to make sure everything is balanced.

There will be with the new def formula, which will be less broken than the current one, so you wont be able to lvl with a 3 def char taking 1 damage every turn. Chars will need stat allocation somewhat like the last version to be able to deal damage and level.

So how would you like to see daggers rectified? The idea i had with them is your basicaly getting a huge boost on two first hits... Added speed, reduced HP. Should i reduce the HP reduction or increase dex or what?

And TD this is my solution to fix the ecenomy... If people are going to make comments the least they could do is make a suggestion as to how to fix whatever they dont like... You dont need to crunch numbers, but if you say something like i dont like dex on this item plz make it bigger, i can apply that to the formula.

[fingolfin]

I was just thinking keep it relatively to what the items had been- meaning hammers were the strongest and you kept them that way, Daggers were always about the most hp, why not just leave them with that distinction?

[Jon_Deciple]

well i made blades about that... think about it... a knight in shining armor wearing a sword would likely have more HP than a stealthy char with a dagger... It just seemed to make a bit more sense.

Yes i know the way it was, but i changed it to be this way now. Please let me know if any of the mods seem to be out of order, but im not going to change the focus of the weapons unless you can pose a convincing argument. Look at all the weapons, and make sure one class is not way better than another class.

[fingolfin]

I think that you made hammers too strong, they shouldnt have the highest str and give the most hp. With Def changed those are arguably the 2 most important categories. I know its just a preference with daggers, but you did make them the worst of all the supers, even a BoT would dominate a DoT, i mean look at the comparison-
Name      #    Power    Type    Def      HP       MP      Int      Dex    Str     Level
BoT      25   2,700   Range *   1,338   1,375   583     333      275      0        11

DoT      25   2,784   Stab *    -586    -64      275        0       573    0        11

BloT      25   3,091   Blade *   1,071    752    149      0       -260       0       11

HoT      25   3,608   Crush *    -6     1,375      0       0        -545      0      11

The BoT has 84 less power, 1924 more def, 1439 more hp, 308 more mp, 333 more int, and 298 less dex. That makes the DoT rediculously underpowered compared to just about any of the other Thorold supers. The hammers big drawback is no mp or int, big loss for fighters(sarcasm). It does lose a lot of dex but ive never had a char with more then 1 dex and most people use builds that dont involve much dex, if any. I say most though i know there are folks out there who still love them some dex. I think my whole point here was that DoT doesnt seem nearly on par with the other 3 listed and i think that should be changed.

[Jon_Deciple]

Ok, so what do you suggest? My idea for daggers were for dex builds, get two first hits and pretty much kill the mobs before they could kill you. 500 dex mod is pretty large, since 1500 is pretty much two first hits... so what, boost it to 1k dex? thats practically giving it away, but if you think it will balance it out...

Also remember this will not be using the current def formula, it will be using my def formula which without supers will allow for an average of two to three hits for similar char lvls with similar equips to PK each other. I have to re-work it to make sure it all works out but its gonna work mostly like the one suggested in the other thread that im too lazy to find right now...

Code:

Name # Power Type Def HP  MP  Int Dex Str  Level
BloT 25 3091 Blade * 1071 752 501 0 -260 0 11
HoT 25 3608 Crush * -6 1375 0 0 -704 0 11
WoT 25 959 Mage * 144 -336 7049 584 70 -202 11
BoT 25 2505 Range * 908 904 583 333 275 0 11
DoT 25 2784 Stab * -586 -64 866 0 1000 0 11

reduced the dex on the hammer by 700, so it will be a while before a pure str gets first hit with it, Boosted the dagger dex to 1k, so your pretty much guarenteed two first hits... lowered the bow power, i might lower the dagger power too... or the dex slightly...

I realize you dont want the dagger to be as weak, and i agree, BUT remember its got dex mods, and it should be the best for dex, and two fist hits will help a LOT with PvM, so thats sort of the tradeoff i did there with the lack of other stats.

As far as def bonuses, when i get the def formula thing working with these items you can play with the def mods and see how much of a difference they make...

Anyways, look over these numbers, tell me if you find them acceptable or what you think should be changed and how

[fingolfin]

I dont know, you have your opinions, i have mine. I dont think dex is worth much really, new version or old. Ive never had a char that had more then 1 dex and i dont think i would ever make a char with any dex. So when you raise or lower dex mods to me it really isnt doing a lot. In my opinion the best builds in the old version were straight 3str 2hp or 3hp 2str, in the new version replace hp with def. Just my opinion though, i know there are people out there who do add dex, Ive just never seen any point in it.

I would be a fan of no dex mods at all, keep things the way they are in that respect. And on a side note, would a wipe be needed for this? I mean I think it would suck that I currently use daggers and would have a wasted 200 skill points because id have to switch to a new weapon.

[White_Knight]

i don't know about all this... I may be old fashion but i like the simplicity of the game.  I also do not agree with INT mods or negatives for any stat.  Being a mage and you as well Jon, you know that adding any amount of INT, especially around or over 500 as you have for your supers, is rediculous.  Already, near 1200 i could do around 32k dmg so adding an extra 500 INT would make it rediculously high even if you do take away from health. Also, why add or subtract dex?

[warpath]

I wuz wondering what kind of items can be bought from the shop that will be worth using? I asked because rares will be harder to come by if the mobs will be dropping rares 3 lvls below them (and I'm not for them dropping non rares). I also thought that this will cause some problems with other players. For long as I can remember the number of players that are playing quest is already low (although there was a time where the quest community was thrivin..scrolly thiny lol). And not all people have alot of playing time. So I wondered that if implemented it may stabilize the quest economy for some time but I'm not too sure with regards to the community. As I've heard from the other players sayin that rares are already hard to come by and with this they will become rarer.

[Jon_Deciple]

this is where its awesome. The shop will sell items up to lvl 9 (the ones without the * by the type)

this means if you cant find a higher lvl rare and really want one you can buy one.

Rares, IMO, are not hard enough to come by. I already have a huge list of em, its ridiculous. People are selling accessories for like, 200 mills. many of us already have full sets from finding the items and trading doubles.

WK a lvl 1k with 3000 int will do about 26. damage. When stat transfers were introduced and i added about 2bill worth of stats to int, that number jumped to around 30k damage... its not exact (i have yet to work the numbers, i dont have many data points after changing stats) Maybe in testing i will have to turn down the int mods, i dont know. But considering the fighter weapons add about 3-4k damage, i figure this is on par with them. There will have to be a vigerous testing period to make sure things like dex and int mods are not totally overpowered. As of now it is totally impossable for me to tell how much difference the mods will do.

As far as the negitive mods go, how many times have players complained that as soon as someone gets a super they shoot up 400 lvls? Well this would help make sure the player using the item has the stats to back it up. Like i said before, a lvl 25 with a HoT might not level as well because they would be taking the first hit. Since they would also have lower HP, it would be harder to lvl.

I understand many of you wont like changes, theres always a group of you with any suggestion. But for this i am not backing down on the negitive mods / int mods. Int mods have been requested for a long while, this is the opportunity to get them introduced.

However, questioning mods and making sure things are balanced is the main idea, so if you see something that worries you (like int mods) please dont hesitate to bring it to my attention. For sure it will be something that needs to be checked out and tested (if this project gets that far)

[White_Knight]

i'm open to changes, i'm just weary of changing the weps.  If you say they work, then ill believe you because you have put way more time into this than anyone else.  I do like the idea of mobs dropping within a range of a few level of rares. This would make higher rares more rare.

[fingolfin]

Ill say it again, you seem to think its impossible to shoot up lvl's without getting first hit, its not hard lol. A lvl 25 with a HoT would indeed shoot up. Ive never had first hit and if i put my mind to it and had a HoT lvling would be a breeze.

[Jon_Deciple]

Im not saying its not possable, but how many people have lvld without dex? not many. And those, like myself, who use dex will notice its harder for our play style. The same way a mage doesnt need to put three int every lvl to use spells, but it makes things easier. A mage who always did 2 int / lvl wouldnt know the difference...

[Lyrael]

I believe weapons sould be more specialised to different play styles. I would suggest for daggers with -HP and -def that they in exchange get an effect whereby if you get first hit on a mob, a dagger would deal additional damage as a factor of your dex. That way, daggers are for dex specialised players who rely on large first hits as a form of defense rather constant attacks over the duration of the fight.

<edit> - Jonny Monroe here

<edit2> - for those that can't tell, i'm essentially describing a 'Rogue/assassin' type of class with a very easy mechanic to promote the playstyle.

[Jon_Deciple]

Well that would be cool, but a lot more coding than what i had intended... But if the groundwork for that could be laid out with these items, sure!

What changes to the item list would you suggest? Like how much negitive stats for the *oT's, then my formula can fill in the rest

[Lyrael]

Honestly, untill you start to define specific classes and builds you simply can't properly itemise. I would suggest you first gather info on all available builds that people play (not oppinionated - whether or not those builds are effective is irrelevant). Then, with that list in mind, begin building up items to suit the different playstyles.

[Pops]

As a Dex Char for the past 3 years im not liking the fact that the strongest weapons in this list have -dex mods and only the weakest have +dex mods, IMO remove the dex mods. We do not need handicap and we sure as hell dont want to be punished with -mods if we deicide to use a hammer instead of a bow

[Acdc]

for real why should ur main stat be penalized if u choose to use a diffrent type of weapon i like the higher mods but -mods are not whats up