Def Formula

[Jon_Deciple]

Im putting this in bugs because from my view, its broken.

Most of you, if not all of you, have noticed that there is a new def formula. This formula achieves a few things:
First it makes all armors, super or not, about the same. Lvl 4 rare armors are just as good (in some cases better) than lvl 8 armors.
Second it makes every build inferior to 3def / lvl builds.
Third it makes leveling extremely fast. I'm in noslin, at lvl 200. I dont take any damage. Sora is the same way. Doesnt matter that we have supers, we would still be out here with 8's if we found those instead...
Fourth it makes PvP useless. Early lvls = weapon wins. Later levels = Def wins because nobody can damage them.


I realize its hard to come up with good formulas, and for two days i have been wracking my brain over this one, with no luck. So here it is. I have a spreadsheet so you can _see_ how broken this formula is. Look it over, See if you can find a formula that works. Note armor numbers / mods can be changed, weapons can be changed, monster damages / HP's can be changed, so dont worry about that. The main thing to work out is PvP. Everything else can be worked around that.

Google Docs Spreadsheet
Note: there is an error, i forgot to make it subtract everything correctly, so changing the armor numbers on this sheet will not produce accurate results.



Some things to keep in mind: (if you change the formulas)
STR players should be able to one to two hit one hp / lvl chars
it should take about three to four hits for that STR char to kill a 3 hp / lvl char
Perhaps armor number adds to def, remove the % blocked?
Allow for many armor slots, and many varying armor numbers
the damage formulas are for the most part good. Unless you have to, dont mess with them

Damage calculated thusly:
Fighters: (STR + Weapon power + str mods) = Base Damage
Mages: ((Weapon MP * .66) + INT) = Base Damage

Defence (Currently)
(Base damage * (Armor number / 100) * Global PVP Mod) - ((Def pts + Def mods) * .66) = Damage taken

!NOTE!
It is NOT 2/3 used, but rather 33/50 or 0.660. YES IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE, Keska and i spent hours figuring out that it was in fact not 2/3. Just be aware of it.

[Keseka]

!NOTE!
It is NOT 2/3 used, but rather 33/50 or 0.660. YES IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE, Keska and i spent hours figuring out that it was in fact not 2/3. Just be aware of it.

It was more like, I kept babbling that DEF was .66 (because I was told mage PK was in fact .66) then Jon checked out his DEF to confirm that after an hour or so.. but yeah, it makes a small insignificant difference. Jon complaining about 21 or some odd damage from the mage formula, for example.

Who knows? Might be 2/3 though, as it was said 3DEF = 2RED...

[Hrothgar]

i don't understand why you wouldn't have an exponential decay model (amount of dmg - decreases at a decreasing rate as your level increases) for Def, you'd think you need more when you get a higher level to take less damage....

[Jon_Deciple]

So how would you set that up?

If people want to throw out even basic formulas, i can test them and modify them to hopefully work... Throw out some examples

[Hrothgar]

give me a day to work on it and ill tell you

[Jon_Deciple]

Ok i have done it. I fixed def. I think.

Firstly, the formulas

Damage is still the same. Your ttl str = max damage, as its always been

for PvP
(TTL Str * 0.88) - (TTL STR * (Armor Power) / 200) - ((Pts in def + def mods + 1) ^ 0.745) - 400 = Damage recieved

The mods on this formula are rather touchy, one of the "global mods" as i call them bumped even a tenth of a point in either direction can massively effect the whole outcome.

Benifits:

Players of the same level have a decent chance against each other. Lvl 500 vs Lvl 500 = good fight
No more endless hitting for 50 damage, when the other player has 50000 HP
3 str chars can 2-3 hit 3 hp chars (yes i know, its only two to three hits, bear with it)
3 str chars vs 3 def chars require closer to 3-5 hits to kill
Chars that have 1 str / lvl will do virtually no damage to anyone with a decent def, even at high lvls. be warned, if you do 1 str / lvl you wont do damage to 3 def/lvl toons. Deal with it.
Mages damage is still mostly based on their weapon, and as we know mages have a complete lack of choices in weapons. Next thing i do is go over items and even them out to work better with this formula.
Armor powers up to 100 are now supported. Accessories are suggested to have lower (less than 10) power, but this allows for HUGE def mods for items. Im talking 200 - 500 def mods. BIG OPPERTUNITY FOR ITEM SELECTION. Im proud of this.

NOTE that 3 str chars are not the easiest to make, and they will have less HP and DEF making them EASIER TO KILL.... So dont think its one sided, because its not.
Tanks who take 3-5 hits to kill will have LESS STR making them deal LESS DAMAGE. Sure they wont die, but they wont deal much damage either.

Heres the link to the spreadsheet
excel spreadsheet

and to google docs once i get it working
Google Docs Version

[Acdc]

good job jon

[Jon_Deciple]

Ok some common questions...

Yes, this will work for PvM as well.... why not? Damage is damage, reguardless of who it comes from...

No, there doesnt need to be a wipe for this to work. All chars are less than a week old. Its not too late for this to be implimented, it would not be a hard task for those of you who sunk 3/lvl into def to make a new char or remake the one your on.

Yes, this means items will need to be modded. The highest single power of an armor would be about 100. The highest def mods for items would be somewhere around 500? maybe more.... dont want to push it too hard.... Some supers might have more def...

Yes i will get to a modified item list as soon as time permits, im only one person.

I dont care if you dont want to remake your char or dont want another wipe, whatever happens happens, and in this case it would be for the better. Please stop bugging me about it.

[Acdc]

hmmm if u go by this formula and my stats wouldnt that make it (664*0.88)-(664*(50)/200)-((406+11+1)^0.745)-400=-71.3766720272448 O.o what up with that?

[Jon_Deciple]

This formula was tested with fenrirs. If you have a lower level rare weapon, as most people do right now, you will deal less damage. Also your current armor number is 50, where most lvl 8 armors would have a power around 75 - 100.

Post your build rather than your current stats, i can check it out at school later today

[Sora]

Maybe it's just me but it seems your bias towards STR builds.  You seem to want them to be the be all end all of PK.  I could just be reading to far into it thou.

[Jon_Deciple]

lol your right i am a bit biast towards str builds...

But thats not a bad thing. to build a pure str char, you are left with either low HP meaning anyone can kill you, or no dex meaning you take the first hit in battle, and you level really slow. Ask MB about that. Im sure he can agree if somone decides to go through the effort to make one, they diserve the benifit.

Also note that its partially the damage formula's fault. There is such a large difference between 3 str and 1 (or 0) str builds that trying to make it completely even is very difficult.

Lastly, i came into game and asked how many hits was fair for a pure str to kill a pure hp char... and this is the result.



Think about it... how many hits SHOULD the strongest PK char in the game take to kill a normal player? Consider they have less defence and can take limited numbers of hits... recognize they will die easially and level slowly... These are the checks and balances of making a str build. The same as making a mage starts off really slow, STR chars start off fast and slow down once you hit velgrad / noslin, reguardless of having supers.

Considering these facts, there is not likely to be many people who devote 3 points per level to str. The average is about two, and a two str char does not have that huge of an advantage over a balanced char. (two 2str 2hp 1dex chars take about 3 hits each to kill each other). remember those PK battles that went on and on till somone got bored? well this formula removes that.it should not take more than 8 hits to kill somone your same level unless you have next to no str, and then your just asking for it.

Im not against people saying "hey i would rather <insert chra type here> took this many hits to kill <insert char type here>" just remember that there is a HUGE difference between 3 str / lvl and 1 str / lvl. And when i first tested nonpure char types i thought i was doomed to revise the formula again. However i realized that if somone doesnt devote the points to str or HP or def, they shouldnt benifit from it. If you waste lots of points in random things, then sucks to be you.


Am i biast? Yes. Does it hurt PK? Not in my opinion. can you come up with somthing better? it has yet to be seen.

[Sora]

Well the fact that you keep saying that people with STR builds should be rewarded for there efforts make no sense.  Do people who make STR builds make more effort then those with DEF builds?  So STR builds should be able to kill a DEF build in 3-5 hits cause of the effort they put into it, what about those who put the effort into making a DEF build, we just ignore that?

to build a pure str char, you are left with either low HP meaning anyone can kill you, or no dex meaning you take the first hit in battle, and you level really slow.

Same goes for DEF build if not even slower, pointed out that it takes me close to 30 minutes to get a level now.  I mean I could be confused but that isn't fast.

Edit: Also an easy fix to the DEF formula for PK is to reduce the initial -% dmg taken from -50% to something lower like -25% or maybe even lower then that.  Its not DEF that is being a pain for PK its the fact that 1 STR = .25 STR in the current PK DEF formula which is just ridiculous. 1 STR = .25 STR then after that you have to deal with -damage from the players DEF if they have added to it.

[Keseka]

Well the fact that you keep saying that people with STR builds should be rewarded for there efforts make no sense.  Do people who make STR builds make more effort then those with DEF builds?  So STR builds should be able to kill a DEF build in 3-5 hits cause of the effort they put into it, what about those who put the effort into making a DEF build, we just ignore that?

to build a pure str char, you are left with either low HP meaning anyone can kill you, or no dex meaning you take the first hit in battle, and you level really slow.

Same goes for DEF build if not even slower, pointed out that it takes me close to 30 minutes to get a level now.  I mean I could be confused but that isn't fast.

Edit: Also an easy fix to the DEF formula for PK is to reduce the initial -% dmg taken from -50% to something lower like -25% or maybe even lower then that.  Its not DEF that is being a pain for PK its the fact that 1 STR = .25 STR in the current PK DEF formula which is just ridiculous. 1 STR = .25 STR then after that you have to deal with -damage from the players DEF if they have added to it.

Well, looking at it from an opposite view, those 3-5 hits are what made PKing somebody with MP impossible because they can heal forever. I would be in favor of PKing being quick, where evenly leveled builds don't take insane amounts of time to kill each other and more "pure" builds could pose a slight threat to higher level balanced builds. Should a 1str/level fighter really be doing infinity billion damage anyway?

In terms of the current DEF formula, PKing isn't quite that simple of a fix. In PvM currently, DEF overpowers strength in a four strength to three DEF ratio and in PK, it's eight to three (or more, with a super+new armors). If the current formula is to be kept, something has to be done about that. In addition, you can combine defensive skills (HP, DEX, DEF) with a single decent item and enter god mode.

A simple solution would be toning down either DEF (DEF*.66=Reduction) or the damage reduction PKing starts with (50%) then doubling strength's effect. However, doing this would still mean that a .72DEX, .28HP, 2STR, 2DEF character would essentially enter god mode in PVM with a good weapon...

To be honest, I haven't even read Jon's DEF formula yet, but I figured I'd comment anyway. :p

[Jon_Deciple]

Edit: Also an easy fix to the DEF formula for PK is to reduce the initial -% dmg taken from -50% to something lower like -25% or maybe even lower then that.  Its not DEF that is being a pain for PK its the fact that 1 STR = .25 STR in the current PK DEF formula which is just ridiculous. 1 STR = .25 STR then after that you have to deal with -damage from the players DEF if they have added to it.

have you even TRIED plotting numbers for this? That will not work. Lessen damage? Fine, lets also remove all ability for people to get PK'd. Because thats whats going to happen. If you reduce damage, you need to reduce the HP you can have, and if you reduce HP you have, then that effects everything else.

Basically the vibe im getting is you dont like that a 3 str player might be able to 3hit another player? If so, how many hits would you say it should take?

If your going to point out a problem with some of the results, then point out a solution. And for heavens sake, Keska, read the bloody formula! sheesh... Also simply toning down the def effectiveness was one of the first things i tried, with no results, because the inhearant formula for def is fundamentally flawed. Exponential regression helps fix that. It also makes it so lower level players and higher level players are both even to each other (a lvl 50 player wont one hit a lvl 50 player, a lvl 1000 player wont have a huge advantage over a lvl 1000 player).

Aside from that, i dont know what you all seem to have a problem with... the general feeling im getting is "def is fine, it just needs a little tweaking..." or "That sucks, it shouldnt be that way".

No real answers as to what you want. Im not a mind reader, if you dont like it TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT.

/rant

[Sora]

What I am basically trying to say there are ways to fix PK without messing around with the current DEF formula which would effect PvM.  Really getting tired of posting on these forums cause regardless of what someone tries to do they just get the others going on rants instead of critiquing others ideas for the good to get the problem solved?  What points is there in even posting if it just turns into rants that have nothing to do with actually address a problem?

/rant

*yes i see the irony can you?*

[Jon_Deciple]

Ok perhaps you didnt notice because i didnt have the STR char build on the first spreadsheet displaying right, i just fixed it. Sora go look at that. Try to tell me that the def formula isnt totally overpowered.

Im getting the feeling you are of the opinion that it is totally fine as it is

[inurro]

I think we might need a wipe now, coz I've got 700+ points in def, and the witch will charge a fortune to move all them haha

[Jon_Deciple]

Or you could just make a new char?

[warpath]

I totally agree that def is overpowered right now..I'm not really into number crunching n stuff but as the def formula stands..with a 3 def/lvl build you can lvl in nos/velgrad with half the level (or less) that you'd have with the old def formula.