Def formula voting

[Dlorak]

The next version will not contain the new DEF formula 

But there are two leading candidate formulas that we need to pick one before we can go live with a new def formula.

Regardless of which we pick, monster strengths are getting put in their place as the below table shows. So monster strengths are going down, but so is the percentage of that strength that will be blocked.

The columns with numbers above them (80, 75, 70... etc) is what damage would be taken if you had that "total defense" aka "% reduction" when getting hit by the NEW monster strength.

Code:

                                                                                                              %
distance old mob STR new mob STR   80               75      70         65           60             55              50                45     40
100 0.613120785 0.076640098 0.01532802 0.019160025 0.022992029 0.026824034 0.030656039 0.034488044 0.038320049 0.042152054 0.045984059
200 2.452483139 0.306560392 0.061312078 0.076640098 0.091968118 0.107296137 0.122624157 0.137952177 0.153280196 0.168608216 0.183936235
450 12.41569589 1.551961987 0.310392397 0.387990497 0.465588596 0.543186695 0.620784795 0.698382894 0.775980993 0.853579093 0.931177192
700 30.04291845 3.755364807 0.751072961 0.938841202 1.126609442 1.314377682 1.502145923 1.689914163 1.877682403 2.065450644 2.253218884
950 55.33415083 6.916768853 1.383353771 1.729192213 2.075030656 2.420869099 2.766707541 3.112545984 3.458384427 3.804222869 4.150061312
1200 88.28939301 11.03617413 2.207234825 2.759043532 3.310852238 3.862660944 4.414469651 4.966278357 5.518087063 6.069895769 6.621704476
1450 128.908645 16.11358063 3.222716125 4.028395156 4.834074188 5.639753219 6.44543225 7.251111281 8.056790313 8.862469344 9.668148375
1700 177.1919068 22.14898835 4.42979767 5.537247088 6.644696505 7.752145923 8.85959534 9.967044758 11.07449418 12.18194359 13.28939301
1950 233.1391784 29.1423973 5.82847946 7.285599326 8.742719191 10.19983906 11.65695892 13.11407879 14.57119865 16.02831852 17.48543838
2200 296.7504598 37.09380748 7.418761496 9.27345187 11.12814224 12.98283262 14.83752299 16.69221337 18.54690374 20.40159411 22.25628449
2450 368.0257511 46.00321888 9.200643777 11.50080472 13.80096567 16.10112661 18.40128755 20.7014485 23.00160944 25.30177039 27.60193133
2700 446.9650521 55.87063151 11.1741263 13.96765788 16.76118945 19.55472103 22.34825261 25.14178418 27.93531576 30.72884733 33.52237891
2950 533.568363 66.69604537 13.33920907 16.67401134 20.00881361 23.34361588 26.67841815 30.01322042 33.34802269 36.68282495 40.01762722
3200 627.8356836 78.47946045 15.69589209 19.61986511 23.54383814 27.46781116 31.39178418 35.3157572 39.23973023 43.16370325 47.08767627
3450 729.7670141 91.22087676 18.24417535 22.80521919 27.36626303 31.92730687 36.48835071 41.04939454 45.61043838 50.17148222 54.73252606
3700 839.3623544 104.9202943 20.98405886 26.23007357 31.47608829 36.722103 41.96811772 47.21413243 52.46014715 57.70616186 62.95217658
3950 956.6217045 119.5777131 23.91554261 29.89442826 35.87331392 41.85219957 47.83108522 53.80997088 59.78885653 65.76774218 71.74662784
4200 1081.545064 135.193133 27.03862661 33.79828326 40.55793991 47.31759657 54.07725322 60.83690987 67.59656652 74.35622318 81.11587983
4450 1214.132434 151.7665543 30.35331085 37.94163857 45.52996628 53.11829399 60.7066217 68.29494942 75.88327713 83.47160484 91.05993256
4700 1354.383814 169.2979767 33.85959534 42.32449418 50.78939301 59.25429185 67.71919068 76.18408952 84.64898835 93.11388719 101.578786
4950 1502.299203 187.7874004 37.55748007 46.94685009 56.33622011 65.72559013 75.11496015 84.50433017 93.89370018 103.2830702 112.6724402
5200 1657.878602 207.2348253 41.44696505 51.80870632 62.17044758 72.53218884 82.8939301 93.25567137 103.6174126 113.9791539 124.3408952
5450 1821.122011 227.6402514 45.52805028 56.91006284 68.29207541 79.67408798 91.05610055 102.4381131 113.8201257 125.2021383 136.5841508
5700 1992.02943 249.0036787 49.80073574 62.25091968 74.70110362 87.15128755 99.60147149 112.0516554 124.5018394 136.9520233 149.4022072
5950 2170.600858 271.3251073 54.26502146 67.83127682 81.39753219 94.96378755 108.5300429 122.0962983 135.6625536 149.228809 162.7950644
6200 2356.836297 294.6045371 58.92090742 73.65113427 88.38136113 103.111588 117.8418148 132.5720417 147.3022685 162.0324954 176.7627223
6450 2550.735745 318.8419681 63.76839362 79.71049203 95.65259044 111.5946888 127.5367872 143.4788857 159.4209841 175.3630825 191.3051809
6700 2752.299203 344.0374004 68.80748007 86.00935009 103.2112201 120.4130901 137.6149601 154.8168302 172.0187002 189.2205702 206.4224402
6950 2961.526671 370.1908338 74.03816677 92.54770846 111.0572502 129.5667918 148.0763335 166.5858752 185.0954169 203.6049586 222.1145003
7200 3178.418148 397.3022685 79.46045371 99.32556714 119.1906806 139.055794 158.9209074 178.7860208 198.6511343 218.5162477 238.3813611
7450 3402.973636 425.3717045 85.0743409 106.3429261 127.6115113 148.8800966 170.1486818 191.417267 212.6858522 233.9544375 255.2230227
7700 3635.193133 454.3991416 90.87982833 113.5997854 136.3197425 159.0396996 181.7596567 204.4796137 227.1995708 249.9195279 272.639485
7950 3875.07664 484.38458 96.876916 121.096145 145.315374 169.534603 193.753832 217.973061 242.19229 266.411519 290.630748
8200 4122.624157 515.3280196 103.0656039 128.8320049 154.5984059 180.3648069 206.1312078 231.8976088 257.6640098 283.4304108 309.1968118
8450 4377.835684 547.2294605 109.4458921 136.8073651 164.1688381 191.5303112 218.8917842 246.2532572 273.6147302 300.9762032 328.3376763
8700 4640.71122 580.0889025 116.0177805 145.0222256 174.0266708 203.0311159 232.035561 261.0400061 290.0444513 319.0488964 348.0533415
8950 4911.250766 613.9063458 122.7812692 153.4765865 184.1719037 214.867221 245.5625383 276.2578556 306.9531729 337.6484902 368.3438075
9200 5189.454323 648.6817903 129.7363581 162.1704476 194.6045371 227.0386266 259.4727161 291.9068056 324.3408952 356.7749847 389.2090742
9450 5475.321888 684.4152361 136.8830472 171.103809 205.3245708 239.5453326 273.7660944 307.9868562 342.207618 376.4283798 410.6491416
9700 5768.853464 721.106683 144.2213366 180.2766708 216.3320049 252.3873391 288.4426732 324.4980074 360.5533415 396.6086757 432.6640098
9950 6070.04905 758.7561312 151.7512262 189.6890328 227.6268394 265.5646459 303.5024525 341.440259 379.3780656 417.3158722 455.2536787
10200 6378.908645 797.3635806 159.4727161 199.3408952 239.2090742 279.0772532 318.9454323 358.8136113 398.6817903 438.5499693 478.4181484
10450 6695.43225 836.9290313 167.3858063 209.2322578 251.0787094 292.9251609 334.7716125 376.6180641 418.4645156 460.3109672 502.1574188
10700 7019.619865 877.4524831 175.4904966 219.3631208 263.2357449 307.1083691 350.9809933 394.8536174 438.7262416 482.5988657 526.4714899
10950 7351.47149 918.9339362 183.7867872 229.7334841 275.6801809 321.6268777 367.5735745 413.5202713 459.4669681 505.4136649 551.3603617
11200 7690.987124 961.3733906 192.2746781 240.3433476 288.4120172 336.4806867 384.5493562 432.6180258 480.6866953 528.7553648 576.8240343
11450 8038.166769 1004.770846 200.9541692 251.1927115 301.4312538 351.6697961 401.9083384 452.1468807 502.3854231 552.6239654 602.8625077
11700 8393.010423 1049.126303 209.8252606 262.2815757 314.7378909 367.194206 419.6505212 472.1068363 524.5631514 577.0194666 629.4757817
11950 8755.518087 1094.439761 218.8879522 273.6099402 328.3319283 383.0539163 437.7759044 492.4978924 547.2198804 601.9418685 656.6638565

The benefits regardless of which formula we pick:
- no "set it and forget it" style of DEF. If an armor has low DEF number, it is an unfixable liability. you WILL take more damage wearing that low DEF item than if you are wearing a higher DEF item. (you cannot just pump the DEF stat till you hit some maximum value.)
-weapons that offer DEF are meaningful.
-DEFmod is a valued mod.


The two options:
1. remove the defense stat entirely. Make the %reduction based entirely on equipment.
DEF% = armor# (summed up for all equipment pieces).

pros/cons:
-It gives us one less stat (and thus more points to put elsewhere).
-Simple is good.
-NO CUSTOMIZATION. A "tank" character would just be the guy with the highest defense equipment.
-Designing new items would be made one notch simpler... It would be easier to keep equipment balanced in the desired range (80-40)%.


2. make the % reduction based on DEF/level.
DEF% = armor# + (DEF/LEVEL)*3
This gives the same basic result as the above formula, but you can get 9% additional defense by putting 3 stat points into DEF per level (or more with defMods).

pros/cons
-CUSTOMIZABLE! build that 'tank'
-if you stop putting points into DEF, your total defense gets WORSE as you level. This is a little counterintuitive.
-The same point as above, worded another way: its level based, so you invest points in DEF constantly, but see no improvement, its a 'maintenance' cost to maintain a high DEF%.
-we can put the DEF stat to use in the dodge/parry equations.
-leaves the door open for a countering "magic DEF" stat in the future.
-added kink to item design, need to make sure the armor numbers plus DEF stat bonus stays within reasonable ranges by manipulating the items (the only variable thing other than DEF stat).


3. armor# + DefStatBonus

Where DefStatBonus is some diminishing returns formula.
ie:
1% bonus you get at 20def,
2% at 50
3% at 125
4% at 225
5% at 350
6% at 475
7% at 625
8% at 800
9% at 1000
I think it would have to be even steeper than that, but you get the idea.

pros/cons
-CUSTOMIZABLE! build that 'tank'
-we can put the DEF stat to use in the dodge/parry equations.
-leaves the door open for a countering "magic DEF" stat in the future.
-added kink to item design, need to make sure the armor numbers plus DEF stat bonus stays within reasonable ranges by manipulating the items (the only variable thing other than DEF stat).
-makes sense intuitively, and is permanent benefit for training DEF up high.



All in all, I think any of the 3 can work.
I dont like equations based on level, but #2 does seem to work out very nicely with minimal oddities (oddities like lower levels are stronger than higher levels... it can happen in #2, but not catastrophically) so Im certainly not counting it out.
I personally like #1, but not being able to customize your characters DEF might be upsetting... Keep in mind there will be 5 pieces of equipment you can pick and choose for just the right balance of DEF to STATMODs in the future when this formula comes in.

[fingolfin]

I voted to keep def as it is, though if it must be changed i suppose just removing def would be the best  idea in my opinion. Im not really seeing the listed benefits of def change as being "benefits" but i suppose thats just me. Also, as you reference a tank build several times, as it stands tank builds are  mainly just for pk. I dont think anyone would go for a def tank build to use against mobs or for pk'ing, seems like it would be wiser to just invest those stats in categories that mean more.

[Keseka]

I personally, vote for #2 where defense would actually be a useful stat.

Personally, I hate "Set n' Forget" kind of spells and stats in RPGs where you know "If I don't spend V stats on health I'll do better with X defense and S health than with Y defense and Z health."

However, regardless of these, the already slightly rarer Protector of * would become much more valuable due to TTLdef% being much harder to keep at a steady value. All in all, #2 would allow new players to take less damage in proportion to health than an older player with the same equipment.

#2 would, however, make berserker's cloth and Archmagi's robe useless to even think about equipping, as a Po* would provide a decent MP mod, HP mod, defense# and strength boost..

All in all, the above could use some fine tuning, but it would work out in the end.

Also, In all honesty, if the strength is to be lowered it should be lowered by less than half as those who can currently fight anywhere outside of llirrem would be able to battle much farther. This would allow for more of the stronger supers to be found, which is not necessarily a good thing. Anyone who could battle in Rothar could probably then jump to mid velgrad. Anyone currently in velgrad could probably jump to noslin.

[fingolfin]

As to kesekas point, will there be anything done with the zerkers cloth/archmagis robe for all those of us who put the time into being able to use one? Other then supers those gave the best mods so a lot of people took the time and added the def to make them useful.

[Jon_Deciple]

I prefer number two...

Mages get totally nurfed with the first one... Archi robes are number 5. They are the highest nonsuper mage armor... and considering the alternative armors, theres not much choice. If number 1 is implimented, then Soul Protectors (number 85 i think) would become the staple mage armor, and archis would only be used for healtraining.

Mages tend to have less HP anyways...

And what happens to the current chars? either way, any char over lvl.... what, 500, would be nerfed...

Also, what would be the max def? Supposing you had a PoN, with number 1 that would give you 95% def anyways...

Will higher level players be able to re-arrange some stats to make up for this change?

Also, i dont see how removing def would solve anything... Everyone would have the same def... If you want more stats to use, then perhaps boost it from 5 pts / lvl to 6.... And for more variety in builds, remove the 3 stat limit.

[Dlorak]

I think we'd have to make those 2 (arch and zerks) armors#= 50 (or some other number lower than 60) and every other peice of armor#=60 (for rares and supers.. maybe super = 65)...

#2 would, however, make berserker's cloth and Archmagi's robe useless to even think about equipping, as a Po* would provide a decent MP mod, HP mod, defense# and strength boost..

lets not assume everyone has Po*'s available    As above, a def formula change would come with the armor items being changed to all be at 60... which walks right into the next thing you correctly pointed out...

Also, In all honesty, if the strength is to be lowered it should be lowered by less than half as those who can currently fight anywhere outside of llirrem would be able to battle much farther. This would allow for more of the stronger supers to be found, which is not necessarily a good thing. Anyone who could battle in Rothar could probably then jump to mid velgrad. Anyone currently in velgrad could probably jump to noslin.

Good point. The plan is to change the armor numbers to 60. Notice that 60 would mean you take the exact same damage as if we hadnt touched either of the def formula or mob str. However, if we have a DEF stat on characters I think 55 is a better 'set' point.


Im really liking #3 on my 3rd or 4th consideration of all this... We could do it by the 0.1% points so its not plataued.

[Amaruak]

Super 65 def!,

 Blasphemy!

thats all I have to say.

[_Ares_]

y are we changing def again? i liked the just armor one but have now changed vote sence supers would only be 65 and other armors 60

i honelsty dont think there is anything wrong with def now

[Sora]

At first I was like oh cool just armor contributing to DEF I never liked having DEF anyways but then....


"The plan is to change the armor numbers to 60. Notice that 60 would mean you take the exact same damage as if we hadn't touched either of the def formula or mob str." - Dlorak


This got me thinking and I am currently falling in love with this idea the more I think about.  Nothing would go unchanged really for those who have reached a certain TTL DEF...  BUT those who wished to add to this could even further increase there DEF reducing the DMG taken and potentially not have to worry about keeping the .72 DEX ratio to have first hit to make leveling bearable.  Also with option number 3 I like that fact that if you reach a certain point and decide to stop putting points into DEF the effect doesn't diminish.

I voted for #3 and have no regrets.  What I am curious about (I know the benefits to vote is being able to remain unknown of what your pick BUT!) are why the people who voted to keep it as is "set it and forget it" when even with the change your not going to be taking anymore damage then you already are.  It makes no sense at all why people would vote for this.  The options above are all ways in which DEF can be turned into something useful in-game without taking away anything it already provided.  Basically the people voting for "set it and forget it" are inhibiting the growth of the game for no reason what so ever, and I am curious as to why they would do this.

[fingolfin]

Well for me personally I voted to keep it the same because as a character that uses a zerker I would be taking more damage under the current proposals.

[Amaruak]

sora, alot of people are picking that because changing def and monster str is just asking for alot of unbalanced chars. if adding more def along with the armor and no maximum it just saying that all new players are gonna see def as everything, theres not gonna be a diverse amount of classes, its all going to be def tanks since if both people have 50 armors, that drop 50% of the attack a monster, yet one chooses to add int str and not def, while the other goes def, then the one choosing def is gonna easily kill a monster without taking much damage, while the str person does more damage but takes considerably more damage.

lets make it numbers
the def being a percent
the monster they fight has 1000 hp and 100 damage
 to make it easy both only do normal hits not crits or critx2
every 100 hp lost the monster does 10% less damage
both have a weapon of 100
3 def still = 1 total

ok 2 level 51 chars thats 250 stats

one does 2 hp 2 str 1 dex while using a 50 armor -
100 hp, 100 str, 50 dex

hits first, does 200 damage, takes 40 damage first hit,
without mods this is almost an impossible fight since they block only 50% of the hit


the other does 2 hp 2 def 1 dex using a 50 armor
100 hp, 100 def(now 88% deflected) 50 dex

hits first does 100 damage, takes 11 damage
they can beat this monster since they block 88% of the hit

aint examples fun.

ill let people stew on what I have said

[Sora]

Amar that would be an ok example if this wasn't stated already:

"Where DefStatBonus is some diminishing returns formula.
ie:
1% bonus you get at 20def,
2% at 50
3% at 125
4% at 225
5% at 350
6% at 475
7% at 625
8% at 800
9% at 1000
I think it would have to be even steeper than that, but you get the idea." - Dlorak

then:
"Im really liking #3 on my 3rd or 4th consideration of all this... We could do it by the 0.1% points so its not plataued." - Dlorak

so 3 DEF=1 TTL DEF doesn't apply

[Amaruak]

I was just stating how much def can change things

now with the diminishing def, theres a few people who are screwed on it.

1. Mages who use archi robes, lets say its raised to 50, that would mean with what dlorak says you would need its looking like 2k def just to compete with a super, now mages don't have that kinda stats, with 3 int, and 1 dex to keep first hit, they would need to always add def and that would mean no hp.

2 Zerker chars - they use zerk cloth, so the same thing applies since they always add 3 str, and they need the dex, so to get back to where its comparable to other armors they would need an horrendous amount of def

Lets say 65 is the new 95,  and if a zerker and archi robe are 50, that 15% is a big big differance, thats the differance between velgrad and noslin pretty much.  until they get that 2k def or so to get to what is comparable to max def now, they will be stuck in velgrad.

[fingolfin]

I already know that zerkers/archirobes will be screwed, but I was wondering about something else. How will the def be calculated? Will it be armor # + mods? So for example if I have a def that gives 60, and weapon that gives + 5 def, will I have 65? If that is the case then all the weapons need a serious reworking. I say that because lets say as it is now, there are 2 characters, both have a #60 armor. Right now any Ho* gives a +15 to def, where as wands, javelins and bows give + 0 for defense, a dagger gives + 5, blades + 10. So a HoN and this armor would give the player 75 def + whatever he/she chooses to add to def whereas a DoN and this armor would give 65 def. According to the suggested stats it would take over 1000 points of def to even that difference out between the 2. That seems a bit ridiculous that for one of the best weapons in the game, DoN, you would have to spend probably about 400 lvl's of just adding def to make it even to a hammer. Now i know the items will be reworked and the mods changed a little, but if you do decide to make any of the supers give a substantial defense bonus over the others i see no reason why everyone wouldnt just train that 1 and ignore all others. If things stayed the same I cant imagine not immediately starting to train hammers because of the huge advantage it would have if i got a Ho*.

[Jon_Deciple]

Fing this is what were trying to determine... How should def be determined?

First option - Def mods all added up = ttl def. Archi and zerker users get totally screwed. Anyone with many def pts invested are totally screwed.

Second Option - TTL Def = armor# + (DEF/LEVEL)*3.   Armor # is added to one third of your def like it is now, but its devided by your level and multiplied by three. This way if you add the max def (3/lvl) you have max def. Anything less means you may take more damage.

I like this because there is a LOT more variety in builds. Def plays a much larger roll in the mix. Plus adding more items, that will mean more def mods. Lower def = more damage in pvp / PK.

The third option is set def bonuses at different point values added to the armor number.  If you have, for instance, an armor with number 50 and 1000 def pts, you have 59 ttl def. If you have the same armor and 999 def pts, you have 58 ttl def. If you have 800 def pts, same armor, you still have 59 ttl def.

I dont like this option because there is too large a gap between percentage points. Istead of putting 500 pts into def, i could put that same 500 pts into HP, and be much better off. Armor is doing most of the work, and def pts are there, but rather useles.

[fingolfin]

I see what your saying jon and i get all of the options presented. Im just wondering how def mods would be calculated into the 3rd option. No one has really explained how the def mods of all the weapons would fit into each proposal. First and foremost I'm against changing def, if it must be changed I would prefer 1 or 3, definitely not 2. With the way its been explained thus far id be against all 3 options until I had more info, like how the items would be changed, how def mods would be factored in. All 3 builds currently negatively impact a berzerker or archi robe user, making both of those(even at the proposed change to #50) incredibly useless.

[Dlorak]

very productive posts...

fingolfin, the DEFMOD on weapons will represent a bonus to your DEF stat (in option 2 and 3). Option1, (without a def stat entirely) would make the DEFMOD affect totalDef in some way. As an example, DEFMOD/10 = gain to ttlDef. (15 = 1.5 boost to %reduction.)

The third option is set def bonuses at different point values added to the armor number.  If you have, for instance, an armor with number 50 and 1000 def pts, you have 59 ttl def. If you have the same armor and 999 def pts, you have 58 ttl def. If you have 800 def pts, same armor, you still have 59 ttl def.

I dont like this option because there is too large a gap between percentage points.

Yeah, the explanation is very close, Jon, BUT, the 'large gap' can be collapsed by doing 0.1% intervals.
example:
1% bonus you get at 20def,
20*.1 = 2.
soooo,
0.1 bonus at 2
0.2 bonus at 4
o.3 bonus at 6...
...
0.9 bonus at 18
1.0 bonus at 20
    ----- THEN
( nextPlateau - (next rate change) ) * 0.1 is cost to get 0.1% bonus... until the next time the cost goes up.
(50 - 20) * 0.1  = 3
so
1.1 at 23
1.2 at 26
...
1.9 at 47
2.0 at 50
    ----- more...
    ----- THEN
( nextPlateau - (next rate change) ) * 0.1 is cost to get 0.1% bonus... until the next time the cost goes up.
(1000 - 800) * 0.1 = 20
8.1 at 820
8.2 at 840
8.3 at 860
,..
8.9 at 960
9.0 at 1000

etc...
I hope you get the jist of that long example, Jon -- its really important too see that it doesn't contain huge gaps between benefits.

Instead of putting 500 pts into def, i could put that same 500 pts into HP, and be much better off. Armor is doing most of the work, and def pts are there, but rather useles.

Thats a balancing issue, and a choice for each player to make. HP isnt as useful if you take too much damage, and taking less damage isnt useful if you have too little HP. However, you ARE onto something concrete when you say this... we can figure out with a decent amount of certainty what the optimal relationship between DEF and HP will be... So I think we'll have to make DEF do more than just the % reduction to encourage its use if we choose #3. I'd LOVE to make DEF up the rate of growth for your Defensive skills (Parry, dodge). I'd like to put the two skills together (call it "protection" skill... or something cooler ) and have it effect chance of dodge and parrying IN RELATION TO ATTACKING SKILLS (slash, etc). This means we'll need monsters to have those skills, but that is on its way eventually, perhaps even before this DEF formula... Another idea that adds another wrench: new spells may cost HP to cast, which may or may not be subject to DEF reductions.

I've rambled way off topic there, but just food for thought: we can make it so "HP or DEF?" is an unanswerable question, they will just be different styles.

I was just stating how much def can change things

now with the diminishing def, theres a few people who are screwed on it.

1. Mages who use archi robes, lets say its raised to 50, that would mean with what dlorak says you would need its looking like 2k def just to compete with a super, now mages don't have that kinda stats, with 3 int, and 1 dex to keep first hit, they would need to always add def and that would mean no hp.

2 Zerker chars - they use zerk cloth, so the same thing applies since they always add 3 str, and they need the dex, so to get back to where its comparable to other armors they would need an horrendous amount of def

Lets say 65 is the new 95,  and if a zerker and archi robe are 50, that 15% is a big big differance, thats the differance between velgrad and noslin pretty much.  until they get that 2k def or so to get to what is comparable to max def now, they will be stuck in velgrad.

[Jon_Deciple]

Ok cool, making .1% incriments makes it a bit more even... But even still, at later levels, your waiting 20 pts for .1% change, where earlier it was 2 or 3... If option three is implimented, i think the stats to allocate should be increased by one, and there be no limit on stats you can allocate.

Plus for all active players for like, say, 1 week after this is implimented, you should allow free stat transfers (assuming you get it working) this way current builds are not screwed over...

And enough with nurfing mages already... Some of us just want to make an honest living.... No need to kill one of our best armors unless your willing to really make up for it...

[_Ares_]

THIS IS WITHOUT THE MOB STR REDUCTION BTW

how about this idea.

We basicaly keep def the way it is so it doesnt mess with current players and their builds but make it to where the highest possible def  bonus is 99

make something like yall have had going in resent posts

X def = Y% bonus

so we can say like 2k def over your current 95% max cold be 99 % def. 
We could find an equal balance in this and make everyone happy

95% = Armor Number + Def/3   ( like it is now)
95% - 99% = ex. if it was 2k for max - 5 def per .01%

2k max
100 def = .2% bonus
200 def = .4% bonus
300 def = .6% bonus
400 def = .8% bonus
500 def = 1.0% bonus
1000 def = 2.0% bonus
1500 def = 3.0% bonus
2000 def = 4.0% bonus

3k max
150 def = .2% bonus
300 def = .4% bonus
450 def = .6% bonus
600 def = .8% bonus
750 def = 1.0% bonus
1500 def = 2.0% bonus
2250 def = 3.0% bonus
3000 def = 4.0% bonus

4k max
200 def = .2% bonus
400 def = .4% bonus
600 def = .6% bonus
800 def = .8% bonus
1000 def = 1.0% bonus
2000 def = 2.0% bonus
3000 def = 3.0% bonus
4000 def = 4.0% bonus

depending on what base + mod def we choose to be the mx you would go up a certian percentage point per so many def points. 

at 99% total def you would only get hit 61 by me (_Ares_) at 6120 total def in a pk battle.  this is y im pulling toward the 3k or 4k def max. 

I think this is my best idea ever but thats not up to me.

[_Ares_]

i now have possible formulas

Def = (Base Def + mod def)

X = 3(95 - armor#)                                                    (X is the amount of Def needed for 95 total)

If Def < or = X ; armor# + (def/3) = total def               (notice this is corrent formula modifided)
If Def> X ; 95 + (Def - X) * [0.001] = total def             (Max total def alowed would be set to 99%)

the 0.001 is for the 4k max def

Max       Number =  (4% / max) * 100                         
2k           .002
3k           .001333...
4k           .001