New or at least varying lands.

[Azmodon]

Here we go. This is the second topic spawned of Kyo's idea in Jon's topic.

Go read my other post on Weapon effects first.

Done? Good.

Now let's get deeper into the idea of having more rares, some location specific.

What if there was at least one alternate place of leveling that was equivalent or staggered in difficulty compared to the other lands?

(Equivalent) Simpler terms, there are two paths to Rothar, and both lead to the same place. What if one went North like it seems it would, instead of going East to Rothar? What if there's a entirely new land up there? It's the same distance as Rothar, but it would have different monsters, ergo, different item drops. This would simply extend as far as Noslin currently does. Perhaps if you want a Wand, dagger, or bow of JesusLand(Noslin currently), you have to go north to Arrhaka the Forgotten land, instead of Mount Noslin, which only has swords, axes, and spears.

(Staggered) Simpler terms, let's say the dungeon starts harder, but runs out to halfway into Rothar as far as difficulty is concerned. It'd seem silly to stay in the dungeon when you could just go to Rothar, right?

Wrong. Varying items comes into play here. Maybe you can't find the sword you like in Rothar. You either have to find it in the dungeon, or buy one from someone else.

The ranges of the lands would effectively overlap, with varying benefits based on build/class for staying in one place or going to another.

[Llirrem 0 - 2500] [Rothar 2500 - 7500] [Noslin 7500 - 16000]
    [Dungeon 1250 - 5000] [Velgrad 5000 - 12000]

Lets say wands are more likely to drop in Velgrad, as opposed to Noslin, and they'll be more powerful when found there. High level Mages flock to Velgrad.

Lets say daggers are more prominent in the Dungeon, as opposed to Rothar, and more powerful when from there. Mid level Thieves or whatever stay in the further edges of the dungeon instead of going to the closer parts of Rothar, because they want a dagger.

Add the potential of varying items, and you've got a far more interesting and complex world. And someone who's been playing forever doesn't necessarily live in Noslin forever, because he might want a wand from the Forgotten Land of Arrhaka or whatever.

[Balogna]

hehe, your wand idea would make velgred less barren..and maybe somebody would find BoV

[Azmodon]

Wand Idea? Velgrad? Again man, concept. Concept, please. I'll be brief this time.

What if there was at least one alternate place of leveling that was equivalent or staggered in difficulty compared to the other lands?

(Equivalent) Simpler terms, there are two paths to Rothar, and both lead to the same place. What if one went North like it seems it would, instead of going East to Rothar? What if there's a entirely new land up there? It's the same distance as Rothar, but it would have different monsters, ergo, different item drops. This would simply extend as far as Noslin currently does. Perhaps if you want a Wand, dagger, or bow of JesusLand(Noslin currently), you have to go north to Arrhaka the Forgotten land, instead of Mount Noslin, which only has swords, axes, and spears.

(Staggered) Simpler terms, let's say the dungeon starts harder, but runs out to halfway into Rothar as far as difficulty is concerned. It'd seem silly to stay in the dungeon when you could just go to Rothar, right?

Wrong. Varying items comes into play here. Maybe you can't find the sword you like in Rothar. You either have to find it in the dungeon, or buy one from someone else.

The ranges of the lands would effectively overlap, with varying benefits based on build/class for staying in one place or going to another.

[Llirrem 0 - 2500] [Rothar 2500 - 7500] [Noslin 7500 - 16000]
 [Dungeon 1250 - 5000] [Velgrad 5000 - 12000]

Lets say wands are more likely to drop in Velgrad, as opposed to Noslin, and they'll be more powerful when found there. High level Mages flock to Velgrad.

Lets say daggers are more prominent in the Dungeon, as opposed to Rothar, and more powerful when from there. Mid level Thieves or whatever stay in the further edges of the dungeon instead of going to the closer parts of Rothar, because they want a dagger.

Add the potential of varying items, and you've got a far more interesting and complex world. And someone who's been playing forever doesn't necessarily live in Noslin forever, because he might want a wand from the Forgotten Land of Arrhaka or whatever.

Anyways. Yes. I'm being mean. I'm also sick of "But I wants'z Quest stay da same, it so simple n' fun!" Quest being as it is, and as it has been for years, has caused the loss of numerous veteran players. I have nothing against the intelligent new players, and will concede that there are mentally inept veterans, but two things stand by what I'm saying here: 1. A more interesting and diverse game will attract more players. More players = better, more diverse community. That arguement is out of the way. 2. A more interesting and diverse game that continually changes and stays interesting will hold those diagnosed with ADD for at least five minutes longer than the game lacking said qualities. That arguement is out of the way.

I'm not trying to make quest like any other game, I'm trying to make the original game, Quest, more interesting and enjoyable to play, I wouldn't be ganking stats or formulas from anywhere. Sure, I may have gotten the concept subconsciously from another game, but it wasn't intentional. So that arguement is out of the way too. Don't try it.

Any other complaints?

[Jon_Deciple]

Dude, this is all cool but your forgetting one very important thing...

Sombody (meaning brandon, most likely) needs to program all this.

That takes time.

Lots of it.

I doubt its gonna happen. But if your serious about it, i suggest you lay out som serious groundwork. Like exactly what happens where and how... im thinking new items that will be only found in that area... like velgradian bow or somthing... anyways i also suggest you come up with some stats for these items, keeping in mind all the other items and their stats...

If you can collate it all really well and post it, then that might make it easier for sooe (again, likely brandon) to do somthing about it. Anyways theres my suggestion.

[Azmodon]

Jon. Read the end of my other post please.

I'm posting the concept. If the concept is accepted, I'll do the entire job myself. I said that. I'll name the lands, the items, etc, lay down percentages, I'll even code the RNGs. But until the concept is accepted, it'd be slightly idiotic to assume that it's ok and just go and waste all of that time and effort when I have better things I could be doing.

Simply put. If the Quest community wants it, and Brandon or an equivalent authority gives me a green light, I'll do it. I have plenty of ideas, a lot more experience than when I originally named/created the level 1-5 rares, (Yes. There were level 1 and 2 rares. Get over it.) and a decent understanding of coding that if I learned what language I'd be working in I could probably set up most of it myself and save Brandon a lot of time.

Otherwise, it's a waste.

EDIT - Found it. Other post...about the weapon mods.

And if you guys don't want to program all that, tell me the language/style, and I'll buy a VB book and do it my self or something. Setting up an RNG more complex than x = INT(RND * 109999) + 1 won't kill me.

Pretty much, all I'd really need would be someone to help with maps and item graphics, and then Brandon to do the final check and upload.

[kyoko]

Brilliant.

[Niclamus]

I taught myself VB in like not too long.  And as for the coding with the way the game is already set up it wouldnt be that hard.  Map specific drops are already in the game, and changing the distance variables is nothing more then just that I'm sure.

I like the idea myself, but then again, thats me

[Jon_Deciple]

I realize this is concept, but sometimes you just need to go out and show that you will, and have done, the hard work, people can see that it is good, and impliment it. Thats pretty much what i did with the help file. Granted i didnt make the whole thing from scratch, but i kept saying that it should be done and nobody seemed to want to do it, so i did. For better or for worse. Now if only my jedi sprite could be added... lol.

I see what your saying you dont want to go out and do all that work with no payoff. But it has been my experience that if you say somthing should be done, people are afraid of doing any work, and therefore chances are it wont get much attention.

Anyways, if you read *my* post, i wasnt condemming your idea. I was simply stating that chances are more than likely that it wouldnt be done, simply because of the time required to complete such a task. Im all for the idea, but highly doubt it will get done.

But go ahead, do the work, and once thats done i will head the motion for it to get put in place.

[Azmodon]

Dude, this is all cool but your forgetting one very important thing...

Sombody (meaning brandon, most likely) needs to program all this.

That takes time.

Lots of it.

I doubt its gonna happen. But if your serious about it, i suggest you lay out som serious groundwork. Like exactly what happens where and how... im thinking new items that will be only found in that area... like velgradian bow or somthing... anyways i also suggest you come up with some stats for these items, keeping in mind all the other items and their stats...

If you can collate it all really well and post it, then that might make it easier for sooe (again, likely brandon) to do somthing about it. Anyways theres my suggestion.

Read it. Read mine too. I never said you condemned my idea, and I also said I'd do it myself, removing the time factor that would keep the team from doing it. Moving on.

Jon. I've made entire expansive game worlds with organized storylines, plot twists, etc. I'm an English major, focused on creative writing, who also DMs in several different campaign worlds that I've either made myself or helped create somewhere along the line.

It's not like I've ever done anything for Quest in the past, right? I guess people just don't have an obvious example of just how much dedication and hard work I'll put into something if asked to do it. Something I'd lost sleep over and watched as it spanned many many pages overflowing with information and random bits involving magical adeptness and other goodies. But man, I can't think of anything. Can you?

Oh. Yeah. That thing. http://www.questrpg.org/forum/index.php?topic=667.0 Tee hee?

Example made. Trust me to do work yet? And that's not the only thing, either...

[Jon_Deciple]

Ok... what was this about anyways? i think i said it was a good idea and that it wouldnt get done unless you did it. Then you said that you would do it, if people liked the idea, then i said that people wold like the idea more if it were done and they didnt have to do the work, and you said you would do the work... so....

where does that leave us?

I guess we both agree that its a cool idea and thay you should do the work? lol.

meh. Its gotten so its hard for me to remember what my argument was anyways, so i will leave it at that, with one more thing to add...

Power to you. Good luck, im rooting for you

[Azmodon]

Me say idea. You say no work no idea. I say I work if idea accepted. You say nobody want work, so nobody accept. I say I work if idea accepted...again. 'Kay?

Anyways, it seems like the forums are dead anyway so I don't see it happening even if I do the work. Four people discussing the same suggestion doesn't exactly make it a hot topic around here.

[Jon_Deciple]

lol. School just started. People are busy. This is the suggestions board. I say give it a month before kids find out how to get around the school blocks and on to quest. lol. Im interested in how you think your going to program this...

[Azmodon]

Um. How I'm going to program it? I've made more complex effects etc. in regular basic, on calculators, and even on a microprocessor with a simple LCD screen. So eh, I think I'll be fine.

Anyway, I've been working on formulas for the area specific items and rares, etc. I've got working formulas down that use simple math to calculate variated effects based on character and monster stats, character level, and monster HP by a constant to provide indefinite increased/lessened effects based on what the character should be fighting at that time.

A level 1 character has around a 1x rate on 50 hp mobs, if he can manage to get a hold of a rare at that point...

A level 850 character has ~.9x rate on 53k HP baddies.

A level 6000 character has ~8x base rate and chance of effects on 53k mobs, but by then the "limiter" I'm throwing in later on would have kicked in and he'd recieve diminishing returns because he's too high a level.

Effectively, If a level 500 with supers walks into the far end of Noslin, his weapon abilities (But not the weapon's base damage or mods) would be severely weakened as long as he fought there. Not only could he not get effects to land, but they'd be doing less than half of what they're supposed to.

Shiris will hate my formulas because they're not as long and complicated as they should be, but they still achieve the same effect and will aggravate players for years to come.

[MysticRat]

Jouser does read here once in a while.
Keep the thread active and be detailed in what you want and can do.
That will make it easier for him to judge the idea.

People here often yell "Oh I can do that blah blah" but in the end they hardly know how to open notepad ^_^
I always read everything in the forum but since I have no experience in programming and such I leave the talking to you in here

It's no secret that I DO support more lands. Specially if the distance increases and the mobs are getting tougher (and giving more exp.)

[Niclamus]

we am want 100k mobs!

Or not >.>

[Azmodon]

-> MB    'Kay.

Were only the new land suggestion taken, all of the work would need to be done, as I don't know how to do maps.

Were only the weapon mod suggestion taken, I've got most everything laid out and could help with the coding.

Were both ideas accepted...
I can program on everything I said, but not VB specifically. (Not that it'd be hard to learn.)I do not know how to make the maps. Aside from the maps, it'd take me perhaps a day and three dollars for a book on syntax to be able to lay out the RNG and effects code, and then maybe a week or two to get it working enough to be play tested.

Formulas are done, with decay set in, mods are set, I've given the lands temporary names in case someone else has a better idea. Forested Grove of Ender(Forest), Forgotten Land of Arhakka(Desert). I've organized the supers into groupings of power, and can go one of two ways with it, but right now: There are three categories of supers, low, medium and high. Llirrem and the Dungeon are low, and supers are split between them. (You must go to the dungeon for certain supers, you must go to Llirrem if you want one of the others.) Rothar and Ender are mid, and Velgrad, Noslin, and Arhakka all share high. Rares are organized by the culture the people of the land would seem to have -> Llirrem has the more common human weapons, while the Dungeon has daggers and other subtle or generally nasty weapons. I've picked out generic terms for most effects that could be thought of. A blanket "Damage on hit" effect covers anything from an especially hurty weapon to a weapon that adds extra magical fire damage. Damage over time -> Bleeding/burning, and so on.

Like I said, all of the formulas are already done, and the four biggest things they require be added to the Quest world are:
Dex/Int mods on weapons. No big deal. (Might require a wipe though...)
A new stat for general hardiness and perhaps a slight HP boost. Constitution/Fortitude. (Wipe eminent.)
Monster stats. (Oh noes the wipez0rz!)
And the new lands suggested. (Eh, wiping already.)

To a lesser extent a new NPC would need to be coded with the ability to generate a monster based on a simple formula for lower rares, and to log certain actions (Don't want to give it away, it wouldn't be too hard to do.) for super rares. All for the acquisition of the effects on weapons. Also, weapons would need to be changed slightly, but this depends entirely upon what you guys end up doing with the skill system at the time.

I proposed this with the new combat system that included monster stats that Shiris had hinted at in mind. Ergo it would not need to be fully done until that update was ready. So...not for a good long time. But you guys said that if you ever did have to wipe, you'd want it to be worth it, aye? Completely revised weapons along with the new skill and stat systems...even I'd play again. At least for a bit.

EDIT - Oh, and none of this necessarily means higher level monsters. This is essentially being added after a wipe, but given time they'd still be needed. Perhaps with the reworking of the system, it won't be so easy to go hurt and maim the squishy 53k's. We'll see.

[Niclamus]

Nice ideas, but nothing you said requires a wipe.  Nothing.

Expecially with the incoming inactivity wipe.

There is nothing that can be suggested out of just plain "wipe the sever" that could cause a wipe.  Database manipulation is NOT hard at all.  Adding 2 fields to a table for an item like your first suggestion can easily be done via a script.  The new stat (which I hope doesnt get added, sorry) can easily be done with a script.  Monsters with stats and new lands do not require anything being done with the user db at all!

So, no, no wipe.

[Azmodon]

You are still clinging to the idea of no wipe? Quest hasn't changed at all, apparently.

Changing the entire weapon system, skill and spell system, as proposed by Shiris, the way items are generated, adding a quest, adding stats and new mods to items, giving monsters stats, and perhaps skills, spells, and "weapon effects", potentially adding another stat (Which, if done without a wipe, would result in just about everyone being pretty weak to just about any effect, because they'd have no points in it.), new lands, and we still don't need a wipe?

Eh, oh well.

Any other comments?

EDIT - For reference, here is the proposed reworking of skills that Shiris hinted at a long time ago. This is what I'm talking about. A wipe for skill changes alone wouldn't be required, but they're also changing what stat values are good for, and giving monsters stats, I just can't find that specific post right now. Or I could be wrong. It's whatever.
http://www.questrpg.org/forum/index.php?topic=675.0

[Niclamus]

You are still clinging to the idea of no wipe? Quest hasn't changed at all, apparently.

Ofcourse I am, I hate supid ideas of wipes.  There is no such thing as a wipe for the better good.  There is only one type of wipe, and really one type of person that wants one, the "make it easier for the newer folks to catch up" wipe.  Although you've been around for a few months a year now you seem to have not lost that mentality.

It's already bad enough that russel is about to get wiped from inactivity, let alone to put everyone back to square 1 so all the old players leave.

[Azmodon]

Few months? One year? I've been playing Quest since 2000. Ask Brandon. I'm supposed to be the kind of person who doesn't want a wipe, according to you.

Let me put it this way. Back in 2000-2002, there was the first generation of Questers. We loved change and improvements, even at the cost of a wipe. That's my generation.

There came along after that, the 2003-2005 generation, which seemed pretty indifferent. A lot of really good ideas came up, but the same three excuses were laid down over and over again so that nothing happened. The older generation quit Quest because of ennui. I took gradually longer and longer breaks because no one wanted any change. People wanted harder monsters and better weapons. That was all.

Here, in 2006, I am still hearing the same lame excuses[/i] as to why Quest has basically been the same game for almost four years now.
1. We like simple Quest. We want Quest to stay simple
2. We don't want a wipe, so we don't want that change.
3. (A newer one, from Jon, but still already repetitive.) People don't want to work, so no.
Guys. You're clinging to something Brandon did four years ago. Can't we move on?
I've been around for more wipes than you know about and always continued playing afterward because the Quest team gave me a reason to with ZOMGBBQ New Stuff.

Niclamus. All of the old players, my friends, left because Quest got boring. Not because there was a wipe. Because there was no reason to play anymore.

Pfeh. I guess this is my last hurrah then. I'm not leaving yet, but this is my last hope. If the Quest community doesn't prove that it's open to change, I have no reason to be here. I don't care if my idea gets accepted or not, that's not important, I want to see you guys want any change to the game.

Simply put. Quest has been around ~6 years and still doesn't have a quest, doesn't that flag as strange to anyone else?